In tech and in the rest of the world--especially when it comes to online communication--it feels like we’ve grown increasingly incapable of communicating well with people we disagree with. In this episode, creator of Laravel Taylor Otwell talks about how he approaches conversations and the importance of being open minded when engaging online.
Past Interviews with Taylor
Matt Stauffer:
All right. Hey, welcome to Things Worth Learning. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer. And this is a show where a curious computer programmer, which is me, interviews fascinating people about their passions. My guest today is Taylor Otwell, the creator of Laravel, which is a programming framework for language called PHP. If you ever heard of Ruby on Rails or anything like that, it's like that, but for a different language, instead of Ruby, it's PHP, and it allows people to more easily create web applications. But he's also the creator of several softwares of businesses that serve those same people, dozens of open source programming tools. He runs a company. He runs conferences. This man does a lot of stuff. So, Taylor, hi. Would you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself and whether it's about your personal life or professional life, or just kind of what should we know about you?
Taylor Otwell:
Sure. Hey, like you said, I'm Taylor Otwell creator of Laravel. I live in Arkansas where I've spent my entire life. I started Laravel about 10 years ago and I've kind of been working on it ever since. It's my little passion project, which turned into kind of a big passion project and that's really been taken up the majority of my professional career. I also am married and have two kids and just hanging out with my family a lot outside of that.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And you really do. I feel like one of the things I love, I know social media can tell all sorts of different stories about things that are true and not true, but your family is such a deep part of your life. And I know that part of it is, your career allows you to do that. But, you obviously love your wife and kids. So, I just want to say for people who don't know you, I love seeing it, man.
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah, thanks. I think it's that. And then, not to downplay that, but also there's just not a lot to do in Arkansas but to hang out with your family.
Matt Stauffer:
It's like, what else could you do? Good thing I like them because ... So, I've never asked you this word because we've done a zillion podcast before, and if those of you who are new to the show, I will do my very best to remember to link all the various interviews I've done with Taylor over the years on different podcasts. But one thing I hadn't asked was, was there ever a part of you that at one point just wanted to go somewhere else? Is there another city or another state where you have almost moved there, but not quite made it?
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah, we've definitely talked about moving other places. I think, it's just difficult because some families are, there are families that are cool with being spread out over the country. And my family is, I mean, grandparents, moms, dads, uncles, they all live different places. And some families seem to be, they're all kind of cloistered up in one area. And my family is definitely that way where my mom, my aunt, my cousins, my grandma, they all live within a 20-minute radius. And honestly, maybe even closer than that. So, it would just be very, I just feel like the family drama of us moving away and like the...Yeah. It's just not worth it at this time. I think, there's definitely a day in the future where certain people like my grandparents had passed away and we don't have as many connections here. The kids are older. Maybe they live somewhere else. I could picture us living somewhere else. But right now, I think we'll be here for at least the next 10 years or so.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, for sure. And I mean, one of the upsides is real estate is affordable in Arkansas. I moved to Atlanta thinking it was going to be cheap there, turns out it's not. All right. So, you know that at the beginning of this, before we jump into the topic that you're actually passionate about, I just want to ask one question of you, which is, do you have any sort of life mantra or phrase or idea you try to live your life by? And I know we talked about a little bit beforehand, but it doesn't have to be one that has been your mantra your whole life, but kind of right now, kind of what are you kind of living by?
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah. So lately, I've been focusing on living in the present moment, kind of living in the now. There's actually a book I read called The Power of Now, which is sort of about this whole topic. And I think, the interesting thing I learned from that book is, it's really simple when you think about it is that kind of now is the only time you actually have, because the past is already past and is unchangeable as much as you may regret or things you want to change about the past. It just can't be changed. And then, the future is so tentative and so uncertain, no matter how big of a plan we make. We kind of have to hold them with a loose grip, so to speak, because things change so quickly in life, as we all learned last year and really, we just have to focus on being the best kind of human we can be in the present moment and sort of enjoying the present moment because things happen so quickly and things change. And, it's important just to be here in the now.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. And I know that especially growing up, I prided myself in being adult and mature, but often what that meant was thinking about the future. And I felt like I spent a lot of, especially in my younger years, not thinking about where I was. And so, I really appreciate that reminder, especially when you have young kids, everyone's like, "Oh, they're going to grow up so fast and they do." So, you got to enjoy those moments when you have them. That's really helpful.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. So, this podcast is about a single topic each episode. And so, can you talk to me a little bit about what is the one particular thing that you're passionate about that we're going to talk about today?
Taylor Otwell:
So the passionate thing, or the thing that I've been passionate about lately is being open-minded in programming and in tech in general, and maybe even the wider world in general.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. We talked a little about it a little bit beforehand, trying to figure out how to even word it. And so, you gave me a couple of examples and I said, one of the things that I think would be nice was just starting with tech because I feel like it's a little better focused in and then we can expand out. So when you think about, let's say we were talking to somebody who has not been around for the last 10 years of us being on Twitter and trying to have these conversations well, could you kind of tell a little bit of the story of what came before, what is this almost in response to, you know what I mean?
Taylor Otwell:
Sure. So, when I first launched Laravel 10 years ago, as it became more popular, it was a very kind of polarizing piece of tech in the PHP world or polarizing framework. And, the reason for that is because as you and I know programmers are very opinionated and they're very passionate about how they like to do things, and Laravel itself was sort of opinionated. So, when developers encounter an opinionated tool and have their own opinions, it becomes sort of a hot button topic. And there was lots of back and forth on Twitter, lots of passionate debating on Twitter about what is the right way to write PHP code, or what is the right way to use a framework, or how should a framework even be structured, or what tools should it offer? How big should it be? How small should it be? And, everyone is just so passionate about this topic online as they are many other topics.
Taylor Otwell:
And it just sort of becomes, I mean, you can honestly lose friends over this topic or you can sever relationships over this topic. And it's so crazy probably to think about from an outside perspective for someone that's not a programmer thinking, you really hate this person because of what programming style they like or don't like. But I mean, it's true that people are like that. And I think, as I've grown up because I wrote Laravel 10 years ago when I was just 25 years old, as I've grown up and had kids and kind of gone through more of life in general, I've learned to have more of an open-minded perspective on things and to let people enjoy their own viewpoints, and even to have an open-minded view of their own mindset.
Taylor Otwell:
I'm sure that people hold the views they do, because they believe that they're the best for them, and that what makes them feel the most satisfied in their programming career and what makes them feel like they're doing the best work. And if they didn't feel that way, they wouldn't hold those views. So, just being sympathetic to that entire phenomenon and holding my own views a little bit more lightly or more open-minded.
Matt Stauffer:
That's helpful. And for some context, for people who are kind of haven't been in these spaces, one of the things you'd always see or often see is someone saying, "I disagree with the way you wrote this particular piece of code or the pattern that you're choosing to espouse in Laravel or whatever, and it's bad and you're wrong." And or, somebody saying, "That's wrong" and they maybe aren't doing it super aggressively, but then you or me or somebody else feeling like we now need to defend the way we're doing it to make sure that everybody knows it's actually the best or the good or something like that. So, it's interesting because I think when someone says be open-minded the first thing I hear is just, be open to consider other options so that you can then learn that they're the best. But it seems to me like you're going a little further than that, where you're really just saying, recognize that what's best for me might not be best for you or something like that.
Matt Stauffer:
So I would say, if someone were to be open-minded in the way you're describing, let's start with again, programming, what would they either start doing or stop doing that you see as a common tendency among programmers as they're discussing these sorts of things.
Taylor Otwell:
I think it's really key just to stop arguing with people in general, because I think about the book that I read, How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is a classic book by Dale Carnegie, where he kind of makes this insight for a mark that you can't win an argument. If you win, if you kind of just beat down the other person and you're convinced like you destroyed them with your superior logic and viewpoint, they sort of resent you for making them feel humiliated, making them feel like you beat them in some way. If you lose the argument, then of course you lost and you feel bad and you feel embarrassed.
Taylor Otwell:
So, it's sort of a lose-lose situation to argue with anyone about anything really. And I think, it's better to sort of develop a mutual trust with that person on other topics and build rapport. And then, you can discuss it with them as friends and a little bit more gently and they trust you more, they respect you more and you can kind of still try to share your own viewpoints and what you see to be the right way to do something, but it's kind of, you have more rapport and you have more of a relationship with that person and you're not just kind of bashing them over ahead of the stranger on Twitter and blog comments or whatever.
Matt Stauffer:
I like that. And it's also interesting because if you were to say, I believe that the programming thing this person has is espousing or whatever is just really wrong. And I don't know them. I think, I'm much more likely to just straight up say they're wrong. But if it's a friend of mine, I feel like even if we have a very healthy conversation and disagree the same amount at the end, I'm much less likely to just presume they're straight up wrong because like you said, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and I'm trusting them that they must've come to that conclusion reasonably somehow.
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah. And you might say, "Well, I don't quite get that. Explain to me why you think that way," and they walk you through it and then you can say, "Oh, well, here's why I kind of feel like this way." And hopefully, you're actually in a programming context looking at their actual code. You know what I mean? Because on Twitter, you're very abstract and theoretical, and it's hard to find any sort of common ground. And when I think when you're actually looking at something tangible and you have a relationship with that person, both parties can kind of see, "Oh, well. Yeah, I can see why you would do it that way." Or they might see your way. "Oh, yeah. I can see why you might think that's simpler, easier for people to understand."
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. One of the things I think that's really interesting about that is that you said, let's look at the code. And I think that, especially from a programming context, what makes sense about that is we often, and this is true outside of program context, we disagree about things, not saying the words that are the foundational concepts that our assumptions or our words are built on. And so, for example, a lot of people will say, "You can't do that because it doesn't work XYZ." And the other person says, "Of course it works." And both of them were thinking about doing that same thing in two different sets of constraints or two different contexts, but nobody's saying that. And so, they're just like, "You make no sense. You're crazy. You're not thinking well." Whereas when you're talking about, you're actually looking at the thing practically and functionally.
Matt Stauffer:
You can't do that, right. You can't not have the same context because you're now actually looking at the context and it reminds me of this past weekend. I was in town with my family and we had a little bit of a kerfuffle about how to handle a particular event and the timing and all that kind of stuff. And, what it took was realizing that there was a whole bunch of information that had not been communicated. And it was like, once we all have the same information, we now all have the same perspective, but we were just thinking like, these are people I love, how are they having such a completely unreasonable perspective on this? And it's because, again, we all assume that the other people had the same information. So, I kind of think that that's something that maybe we can extract out a little bit as we're talking, not just about coding, but about other things in life is understanding the context that the other person has, it's different from yours.
Matt Stauffer:
So, I know that I pushed a little bit to say, let's start at the programming context, but that may be something that we can extract out a little bit further, but let's keep it focused on online communication for now. As you think about online communication, both in programming and non-programming contexts, how do you kind of prepare yourself or interact or stop some of your natural negative responses to online disagreements or stuff like that? What does it look like for you to kind of just go into those spaces with a different perspective? Is there something you say to yourself, or when you find yourself getting upset, do you remind yourself or something, or kind of what does it look like?
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah. I think, it may sound kind of hokey or crazy, but I think, when I come to interact with people online in my best state and my best mind state, I would like to think that my goal is to make this other person's life better in some way via my contribution to this online discussion. So, I kind of think of it like we're all humans on this space rock, flying through space, and we might as well all work together and try to help each other as much as possible because we're all sort of comrades in that way. We all live here. I think, if what I'm going to say is not going to actually benefit that person, if it's meant to tear them down in some way, make them feel bad in some way, make them feel small in some way, to me lately, I just think that's just not worth doing.
Taylor Otwell:
Even if some dark part of me really wants to just dismiss junk on this person, if I can't say anything that I think is going to benefit them, and that may be something that it disagrees with something they're saying, but present it in a way that's very amiable or very friendly, even if it's a different viewpoint than what they have, then I just would rather not contribute anymore at all. And I didn't use to be that way. I used to try to dunk on people more. I guess, I used to get more defensive. When people would say something bad about Laravel, which I'd spent so much time working on, I just got really defensive and would want to just snap back at them really quickly, and did a lot of times, but that just doesn't really lead anywhere.
Taylor Otwell:
But having these sort of severed relationships and awkward moments online, and then I think, a lot of times you end up actually feeling bad afterwards, even though the person doesn't admit it online. I think, you just feel kind of gross after doing something like that a few days later, maybe a week later, and it's just like, "Oh, I really shouldn't have said that." So I think, when you do that, it kind of tears down a piece of yourself as well.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I'm so glad you said that because I was about to say, I feel like the number one time when I've ever regretted something online has been when I do that thing where you respond and you feel defensive and you want to kind of justify your position, but you end up responding in a way that you wouldn't naturally. And then afterwards, you're like, yeah, it was right, but it wasn't loving kind of situation. And, it's also making me thinking of Bambi. I remember, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all, something like that. Obviously, let's take a little too far for what we're saying, because we want to be able to have a reasonable conversation...
Taylor Otwell:
We have to have honest conversations.
Matt Stauffer:
Yes, exactly. And, honesty is not always nice, but it can at least be loving and kind.
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah. And I think, the honesty thing, when we're pulling this back away from programming, there's so many situations in the world where you do actually have to feel like you have to be honest and you have to. It can't always be very wishy-washy like for example, if there's some group of people that is enslaving other groups of people on the planet somewhere, you can't just be, "Well, I'm going to keep an open mind about that." There are certain issues where it's like, "I just can't tolerate this." And, you just have to be firm and not try to, if other people ...
Taylor Otwell:
The slavery thing is a little bit extreme, but maybe the Corona virus vaccine. That's a really hot button topic around the world and people have all kinds of different viewpoints. And I think, that's another situation where it's important to have a relationship with the person you're trying to persuade or trying to share your viewpoint with. Instead of just trying to tell them, "You don't care if people die" or "You're trying to harm me in some way." I think, it just goes a lot further if you can build a relationship with that person.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And that's great. I like that example because you don't know me. You don't know what I'm trying to do. Whereas if you do know me, then now we can have a more reasonable conversation where you do know that I understand and I care for you. And yet, I'm concerned about this thing. And I do think that the vaccine and slavery are helpful examples because in some ways it's about, does it hurt other people? If the thing that you're doing that I disagree with doesn't hurt me at all, that's a very different set of open-mindedness principles. Then, if the thing you're doing hurts me or other people, because I think, I don't know if that's a perfect line, but I wonder if that's the line between when you should just be open-minded versus when it's actually pretty important to kind of actually work to stop the thing.
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah. I agree. There's certain things for example, maybe one person is really passionate about the keto diet, and that doesn't affect us at all. And we can be very open-minded about that and have a great discussion about that. Even though people get very passionate and argue about the best diets, the best workout routine, that's very common to argue with people online about, but I think, that's something where it's not harming anyone.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I love that because I do think that there's always extremes and kind of how people expect that a healthy society is going to work. And I think, one of the ones I've noticed a lot is that there's some people who believe my way is the only way and everybody else is wrong. This is terrible, and this is programming and politics, whatever else. But then I think, the response a lot of other people make is, we should all just be completely open to everything. And it leads you to not have the ability to take a principle, that integral stance on anything about this is the way I want to do things. And so I think, the parallel is clear when we're talking about politics and stuff where it's okay to say I'm open-minded when it comes to your own personal life or expression or whatever, but I'm also going to take a principled stand when it comes to things that I think are actually harming people.
Matt Stauffer:
But then, the same thing can be true from a programming perspective of, I think, a lot of people have actually prescribed, hearing the delineation you and I just made, I think a lot of people would say, are now starting to see in response to it like, "Well, yeah. I think that programming thing that you're doing that I don't like is harmful." And I'm like, "How is this?" And they start kind of doing this little dance. It's sort of like, "Well, you're going to harm your client because you're doing something." Even then, people kind of bring that stuff in a little bit, but I think one of the things I love about the way you do programming, the way you do Laravel, is you both have a particular opinion. I think that you are a very much, and sorry for the non programming listeners. I'm going to talk programming just a bit.
Matt Stauffer:
But, you're very much like, keep it simple and yagni and just kind of, do what works. And sometimes, that can be a little bit opposite of some of the more heavy architectural styles, but even so, while holding the opinions that you do, you have built a community and a framework that has made space for people to write their code however they want. You didn't build in things to Laravel to prevent somebody who programs differently from you from doing their thing. And I think, that's a really unique perspective of it. Is that something you did intentionally or is it just kind of your underlying principles have just led to something that works that way?
Taylor Otwell:
I think some of both. I want people to be able to use Laravel in a way that they enjoy and that makes them happy and to keep it flexible in that way. So yeah, I think a mixture of both really. Yeah. And going back to what you said about when a programmer that can kind of take it to these places where what you're doing is harmful or what you're doing is dangerous, I've had people say things like that to me.
Taylor Otwell:
And, what I've tried to say in the past is like, "Thank you for sharing that concern with me. I'm definitely going to keep that in mind and think about that," and just kind of move on from there because I think they feel like their concern, making them feel their concern has been heard, which it has and is going to be, I'll consider that and think about that, making sure that I'm doing the best for my client, but ultimately I'm going to move forward with what I think is best and what they like and what seems to be working. But, it's just a one sentence response that you can give. I think, that sort of satisfies the other person to the extent.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I love that because you are making them feel heard, which I think like you said, is one of their biggest concerns. And I don't think a lot of people who are saying that's dangerous want to be proven right. The underlying goal is in their mind to protect you from something dangerous. Whether or not we agree, it's actually, dangerous thing is different. And so to say, I hear you and I understand what you're saying. And then, for them to respect that you're a grownup, who's going to make your own decisions. And that doesn't mean that those decisions will necessarily disregard what they said. It might actually include it, but regardless, you're not choosing to have an argument at that moment. I think, that's a really cool perspective. And, it takes a lot of humility.
Matt Stauffer:
I think, to be able to say to someone who's saying you're wrong to say, "I hear you. I respect your opinion. And, I will consider it" rather than dunking on them, because I think that, I'd love, you said like my defensiveness and my insecurities make me want to say. Anytime somebody says you're wrong, first thing I want to do is say, "No, you're wrong. Here's why I'm right. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." So, there's a level of confidence in yourself that leads to a much more easy time doing that.
Taylor Otwell:
Yeah. And I think, it's a balance being that way and then not becoming a people pleaser where you do whatever people say. So, I'm just thinking of situations like this. Say you're 19 or 20 years old and you tell your mom, "I really want to get this tattoo." And she's really, she's like, "Oh, this will ruin your chances to get a job. No one would want to hire you. You you'll look bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You can kind of apply the same situation, I think. "I hear you, mom. Yeah. I definitely will consider those things," but ultimately, you're going to have to do make your own decision.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. That's good. And then you mentioned 19, it's different than when you're 16, whereas it kind of feel like, "You live under my roof. You live by my rules." Yeah. That's awesome. So, I know that one of the things we talked a little bit about before the podcast was about polarization, both in terms of people's opinions and also just in terms of kind of communication that happens. One of the things I appreciate you saying here was both that we should be open-minded. And, that does not therefore mean that someone can go along and say, well, you having an opinion about Haitian migrants or whatever, is therefore, you being closed minded. No. We should care about people and the people being harmed by. This is a big thing.
Matt Stauffer:
If a given person were to go into, especially that stay on Twitter, online social media conversations about anything that is polarized, can you give me a mantra? And it's okay if you don't, because I know there's a lot to ask, because I remember, you said, when you were going to these conversations with people, you didn't want to be dunking on them. You didn't want to feel bad going afterwards. Is there any kind of mantra or perspective or anything like that you would say? I think if each of us entered into potentially controversial whatever online conversations, if we just remembered this one thing going into it, it might help us remember all the things that you just said. It's a little bit broader. Is there any way, like little angle, mantra or something?
Taylor Otwell:
I think, I go into these conversations at the start assuming good intentions from both sides. So, assuming that this person is expressing their point of view because they're concerned and they want to benefit society and improve the world and they have good intentions about everything, and so do you, and then sort of just trying to find some sort of common ground rather than going in and thinking this person is just a psycho or can't be trusted, blah, blah, blah. These are all we assume. Everyone on Twitter is kind of a human being with thoughts and feelings and just assuming good intentions from the beginning. They may prove later that they don't actually have good intentions or they're purposefully a troll. When the conversation starts, just assuming the best.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. I had long conversations with my sister this weekend about how important that is in interpersonal relationships, whether it's family relationships or romantic relationships. It feels like this idea of assuming the other person's best intent can make such a difference in how we even interpret things that are a little bit more gray for the posture we use towards them and how likely we already get snappy at them and all these different things. So I really appreciate that.
Taylor Otwell:
I've seen relationships get to the point in person where it can be as simple as someone asking someone or texting someone, "Hey, what are you up to today?" And, people get so into not assuming good intent that they'll be like, "Oh, why is this person so nosy? They're always trying to keep track of me, blah, blah." Even the simplest of things can be spun out of control just by being, having this kind of suspicious, skeptical attitude and not assuming good intentions from the other person.
Matt Stauffer:
That's a great point. And that can really damage any relationship, no matter how close or distant or far away it is just to. If everything they do is going to look like a problem, then you're never going to kind of reconcile anything. That's good. Okay. So one last question for you before we wrap up for today. When you were younger, is there any insights or any support that you either got or needed that you hope more people will be giving to other people as they come up?
Taylor Otwell:
The thing I look back on the most from being younger is mainly my grandpa, I would say, mainly his work ethic. He just always gave his best, a hundred percent. It's not like he knew how to do everything. He knew how to do a lot of things, but no matter what it was, he just sort of gave his best effort and was satisfied that he tried his hardest to provide the best result he could in whatever situation. And I think about that a lot with Laravel, and just trying to give people, give programmers the best tool that I can provide, that I know how to provide. And as long as I did that, the chips just kind of fall where they do, but as long as I'm kind of, it's kind of like that old story about finishing the side of the piece of furniture that no one will see, you know, just doing a good job all the way through.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I mean, you told me about that in a previous podcast about sanding the underside of a cabinet or something we talked about and I now think about that every single time. There's a part of me that goes, you know what, this is good enough. And, I remember that specific example and, "No, I'm going to go saand in the underside of the cabinet." So, I really appreciate that a lot. Okay. So, if people don't already follow you or connect with what you're doing, I'm guessing they're not going to jump into being Laravel programmers today or buying your software as a service. But if they just think you seem like a nice guy, where should they follow you?
Taylor Otwell:
I'm most active on Twitter, @taylorotwell.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay. And we'll link that in the show notes. So, is there anything else you wanted to say before we cut up for the day?
Taylor Otwell:
No, that's it. Thanks a lot for having me.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh dude. It was a total pleasure having you. Thank you so much for joining me again and for everybody else, thanks for listening. And until next time. Be good to each other.