In this episode, friend of the podcast and co-creator of the Transistor podcast hosting service Justin Jackson talks about his faith journey moving from Evangelicalism to atheism. Justin also talks life lessons in leaving Evangelical Christianity, the values he still finds in the community he had there, and the importance of creating traditions in building community.
Matt Stauffer:
Hey, and welcome to Things Worth Learning. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer. This is a show where a curious computer programmer, that's me, interviews fascinating people about their passions. My guest today is Justin Jackson, co-founder of the podcast hosting service Transistor and the creator of about a jillion products and podcasts targeting entrepreneurs and founders. Justin, hey, would you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself and whether it's your personal or professional life?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. I work at Transistor full time now. Been interested in entrepreneurship for a long time. I'm a dad of four kids. My wife and I just celebrated our 20th anniversary.
Matt Stauffer:
Congratulations, man. That's huge.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. It's big. Whenever I talk about that part, I'm like it wasn't easy.
Matt Stauffer:
Right.
Justin Jackson:
It's like not all those years were good.
Matt Stauffer:
But that's why it's huge, because you made it.
Justin Jackson:
And something that a lot of people don't know about me is that I came into tech late in life. 28 years old. The first kind of decade of my life, I was an evangelical youth minister, and left that world behind in 2008, went and worked for a software company, and that's kind of defined me since then. But I had this prior life that nobody knows about. One of the first... What is it? Do you get three decades or something?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, it's something. I wish I could remember how they split it up, but yes, that was your first chunk, right?
Justin Jackson:
That was my first chunk. Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
Which is funny, because that's my first chunk too, was I was an evangelical campus minister for the first chunk and then went back to software.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. I remember chatting with you about that at a conference, like we were at a speakers' dinner, and it's a part of my life I don't get to talk about very much, and so when I sat down with you and you revealed that about yourself, there was definitely this safety and also just yearning to be able to talk to somebody about those things. And maybe we can get into that a bit later. I don't even really exactly know how post-evangelical you are, so-
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Man, maybe I'll be revealing it on this podcast. We'll see.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. It is important to talk about because North America has this strong Christian, evangelical, Catholic, Episcopal background context for decades, and so it's built into the fabric of especially the United States. And so, I think there's a lot of people who might have similar experiences, or struggles, or questions, so yeah, I think it might be interesting to chat.
Matt Stauffer:
Might take us somewhere. And we are both people who've been trying to talk publicly about mental health and stuff like that, so turns out this is connected and it might be helpful to talk about this publicly too.
Justin Jackson:
Totally. Totally. Yeah. About half my time in therapy is just exploring stuff related to religion and that whole experience.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Well, clearly we're going to get there, so thank you for that intro. I'm going to ask you one question and then we'll get right into it. So, the one question is do you have any sort of life mantra, or phrase, or idea you try to live your life by?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah, so the most poignant for me is this quote from James Clear. "Every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become. No single instance will transform your beliefs, but as votes build up, so does the evidence of your identity. This is why habits are crucial. They cast repeated votes for being a type of person." And so, yeah, for me, especially going through different seasons of life, and that includes spirituality and religion, but also career, also relationships, also depression, also whatever it is, I've found that quote to be incredibly helpful. Because in the moments where I felt like, I don't know, a shitty dad, I could look at that quote and go, "Okay, well, what's just one vote I can take that will be evidence that I can be a better dad?"
Matt Stauffer:
I'm a good dad. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
And it's like, "Okay, well, I'm tired, but I can take the kids to the trampoline and jump on the trampoline with them." And it's just a small thing but it became a vote for the kind of person I wanted to be.
Matt Stauffer:
That's so cool, man.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. I've referred back to that. Josh Pigford has a service that will print your tweets out on wood and I've printed James Clear's tweet out engraved in wood and have it in our house.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh, cool. I love that.
Justin Jackson:
Because it's been so kind of central for me.
Matt Stauffer:
That is really cool. I love that idea about the vote for the person you want to be, especially when you're doubting the person you think you are. Obviously, you and I have an ongoing dialog about depression, and anxiety, and handling them, and stuff like that, but I do think that especially in the context of wrestling with our identity after being at a place that kind of provided us a lot of identity as we're about to talk about, being in a place where you now have to figure out your own identity, again, I don't want to go too deep in the actual topic yet, but like I can really see the value in learning how to determine your own identity, I guess. Like having an agency over it.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. I think this is also why one of tech, like the tech industry that I'm in now, one of the problems is it's even our pop culture, it's really focused on young people. Folks in their twenties. Startup founders. The hot startup founders are in their twenties. A lot of the crypto community right now is in their twenties.
Matt Stauffer:
Or teens.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. Or teens. And there's nothing wrong with being in your teens or your twenties. It's an awesome time. For me, life got difficult in my thirties and now forties. There's challenge there that you don't get, or a lot of people don't get, when you're kind of in the... Again, it's a great stage, that idealistic stage of being in your twenties. But having older people who can talk openly that life is not just idealistic clouds and rainbows is very important for the culture. And I wish I knew more people, older people, who had revealed this to me, who had been transparent about it, because I felt like I just kind of lived in this state of public politeness, where everybody just seems to have their shit together.
Matt Stauffer:
Everything's fine. Too blessed to be stressed.
Justin Jackson:
Everything's fine. And to emphasize this even more, when hard stuff started happening to me, again, relationships, family, kids, whatever it is, it felt like it was so outside of what was "normal" that I really thought I was a deviant. I thought I had deviated from what was normal and healthy. Because it just seemed like everybody was walking around with this kind of public persona that denies and kind of looks down on things like that.
Justin Jackson:
I often go back to the Britney Spears thing, like when she was going through some stuff and it was in the media. I remember everybody around me being like, "Whoa, Britney's crazy." And then in my thirties and forties, I've identified with that person, that Britney, a lot more. Going, "People go through that." And it was odd for me to have people around me treat it as so deviant when it's like the disruption in my own life has almost matched that. And to not have that echoed or mirrored amongst anybody is just like, "Why doesn't that exist?"
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Which is why, and again, then we'll go right into the topic, but it's one of the benefits of just being able to be open and honest about these things that seem to be taboo to talk about, right?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. Totally.
Matt Stauffer:
Because I know we have both benefited from other people who've been public about their stories, and their histories, and then it allows us to be public about ours, so yeah. I hear you.
Justin Jackson:
Yes. Absolutely.
Matt Stauffer:
All right, so let's get to the primary topic, because obviously we're already on the verge of it from six different angles already. You know this podcast is about one topic you're really passionate about. Could you tell me, what are we going to talk about today?
Justin Jackson:
I think post-evangelicalism is the topic, and what my thoughts, experiences, lessons, and thoughts about leaving the church, leaving faith, of taking something that was central to my identity for the first three decades of my life, and actually central to my family's identity, and then moving on, how that happens and then what happens after is something that doesn't get talked a lot about. And that term, post-evangelical, can mean different things for different people. For some people, it means they've left faith entirely and that would be where I sit. For some people, it means they've left evangelicalism in particular, and maybe they've gone back to a more traditional or liturgical church or something like that. And for the purposes of this conversation, evangelicalism, I would define it as a brand of Christianity, fairly modern. It's like in its extreme form, it's the church you see on TV. It's the Joel Osteen. It's megachurches. It's political lobby groups and organizations like Focus on the Family. It's mission trips. It's Christian outreach to teenagers and college students primarily.
Justin Jackson:
It's that whole thing. And would you define it any other way? Would you add or subtract from that, do you think?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. There's a tiny little bit of more theological space, just in case anybody has a theological bent. Evangelicalism came out of fundamentalism in the early '20s and '30s, and fundamentalism at that point didn't mean what it means now. It just meant we want to go back to the fundamentals. And evangelicalism kind of defined itself, I think the way they talked about it, it was like Billy Graham and then John... I don't think it was John Stott. Maybe it was John Stott. But a guy basically in the U.K. and Billy Graham were kind of like the two global spearheads. And they defined it in a book called Evangelical Truth that was basically you've got evangelicalism, you've got mainline Protestantism, and then you've got Catholicism, and that's kind of how they saw it.
Matt Stauffer:
Obviously, there's way more than that, but in their mind, the main line, which is like if you look at all the Presbyterians, and Methodists, and all that kind of stuff, usually there's one half of those denominations that are like LGBTQ-plus affirming, and women priests, and then there's usually one half of each of those that's not. So, the ones that are not are the evangelicals. The ones that are are the main line. And then you've got Catholic, and of course there's a lot of other denominations in there, but historically it's been the majority of North American, white, Christian religion, that isn't either progressive, or Catholic, or super fringe, right?
Justin Jackson:
Yes.
Matt Stauffer:
So, all the non-denominationals tend to be evangelical. Baptists, evangelical. All the big people you see. So, that's the only thing I would add to it.
Justin Jackson:
Yes. And maybe not most importantly, but crucially for people like you and I, and a lot of people listening, is that it's the most... It was very strong, it has a strong culture-
Matt Stauffer:
Oh my God. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
... that intersected with capitalism, and politics, and media, and we grew up, I was born in 1980, I grew up when this was happening, so Christian bookstores and music stores in every city in North America. Media properties like Veggie Tales and Christian music, and Christian concerts, Christian movies, it was the first time, really, where Christians had their own culture and that meant their own media, that meant their own magazines, that meant you could grow up and you had an alternative to whatever was not Christian and not church. And it was a way of parents kind of protecting their kids, and I definitely grew up that way.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Me too.
Justin Jackson:
My kids think this is hilarious, but was not allowed to watch The Smurfs. Wasn't allowed to watch, what was it, Ghostbusters? We just watched Ghostbusters the other day. But I was allowed to get anything I wanted from the Christian bookstore and we would visit frequently, maybe once or twice a month, and buy new CDs. I'm really into standup comedy. The first standup comedy I heard was Mike Warnke.
Matt Stauffer:
I don't know who that is. Sorry. Is that recent?
Justin Jackson:
Mike Warnke was like former satanist, quote unquote.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh yeah. Okay. Got it.
Justin Jackson:
And stole most of his jokes from Bill Cosby.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh my gosh.
Justin Jackson:
But I remember the odd thing is growing up in that, there's a strange nostalgia that comes with all of that. So, the same way people feel about their favorite TV shows, and their favorite music, and their favorite events, or whatever, I still feel. Even though I've left the faith, I still feel that towards, like I have good memories of listening to Mike Warnke tapes on family trips and laughing. I have good memories, even though he's been proven to be a fraud and a huckster since then, my first real business hero was Phil Vischer, the guy that created Veggie Tales. He just seemed to be doing everything I wanted to do. He'd created this company, he was making animation, he was having this big impact on the culture.
Justin Jackson:
And so, for me, one thing I think about a lot is there's really not a lot of public discourse about growing up in that culture, because it was at its strongest in the '80s and '90s. And is now not as much of a thing. Partly because even streaming has I think affected the cultural... When you had the Christian bookstore, it was like the center of the Christian culture, and you had Focus on the Family had some magazines for teenagers, Breakaway for guys and Brio for girls.
Matt Stauffer:
Yep. I got Breakaway.
Justin Jackson:
Back then, the internet was not very big, and you could, if you were going to get your kid a magazine subscription, that kind of would dictate the kind of culture they would be exposed to. And so, it was a lot easier back then to say, "Well, we're a Christian family. We're just going to read these magazines. We're going to watch these movies. We're going to buy this music. You want to go to a concert? Who's it with? Where you going? Oh, it's with the church youth group? Okay, you can go."
Matt Stauffer:
Cool. Yeah. Safe.
Justin Jackson:
It was easy. And interesting on all sorts of ways, like there's bands, since I've become an adult, I've become friendly with Mike Herrera, who's the lead singer of MxPx.
Matt Stauffer:
Really? That's amazing.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah, which is like this... It was kind of in the punk rock section of the Christian bookstore. They were the big-
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. The big one.
Justin Jackson:
And they could sell out huge venues. And I've talked to him about this a few times. He actually doesn't... He's not a big fan of talking about this connection, but that distribution channel for them was massive. It's one of the only times in history where people, where bands, for example, have had that kind of distribution. And it allowed a lot of artistic people and creative people to get some traction, and get an audience, and build up a following, and again, I think that's the only time in history that that's really happened.
Matt Stauffer:
As long as they behaved, right?
Justin Jackson:
As long as they behaved. Yes.
Matt Stauffer:
Which could be an entirely separate podcast if we wanted.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. So, since I've left that culture, so I worked for a Christian evangelical organization doing events for high school students, camps for high school students, and for me, I moved away from Christianity slowly. It was like nudge by nudge, bit by bit, until one day you wake up and you go, "Man, I just don't feel like going to church anymore." And then hanging out with different people, so once I was no longer working with Christians, meeting with Christian donors, and Christian leaders, and Christian small groups, my new social group became the people I was hanging out with in tech, and one thing I've learned since then is that really we are just a reflection of the people we hang out with.
Matt Stauffer:
Come on. That's so much the truth. That's so true.
Justin Jackson:
And that was striking for me at first, because previously I thought, "Well, no. There's this inspired truth in this book that was written thousands of years ago and that is what's creating this identity. That's what's informing this belief." But I could be wrong about everything, but my experience since then is that you just end up reflecting the people you hang out with. And I've had this experience also, even like moving to a new neighborhood, or a new town, you just... I moved from Alberta, which is like the Texas of Canada, to B.C., which is like the California, Portland, whatever.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Ish. Yeah, exactly.
Justin Jackson:
Seattle. And just that move nudges me over. When I left, and I decided that I was done, I ripped out all of this old stuff feeling like these were old, useless parts that I no longer needed. So, prayer, gone. Traditions, gone. Small groups, gone. Just take all these things out. And let's say that transformation happened between the ages of 28 and 32. From 32 to 40, as I've reflected, one thing I'm realizing is that some of those things were good things that maybe I shouldn't have thrown away so fast.
Matt Stauffer:
Interesting. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
So, I'll give you an example. Why pray before a meal if you don't believe in God? Well, it turns out that that practice of a family gathering together, sitting down together, and there being an official start to the meal, where everyone gets grounded, maybe you hold hands, you take a breath, you close your eyes, there's some silence, that act, that tradition, that practice actually has tons of ancillary benefits outside of maybe connecting with a deity that's there. And we just threw all that stuff out, and in retrospect, I think it caused us to be a little bit rudderless. The benefit of religion is you have thousands of years of practice. And some of it is not good. Maybe a lot of it is not good. But there are things in it, some of these practices, some of these traditions are incredibly helpful for human beings, for families, for societies.
Justin Jackson:
And by ejecting those, why did I say ejecting like that?
Matt Stauffer:
It's because you're Canadian.
Justin Jackson:
By ejecting.
Matt Stauffer:
I thought that's how Canadians say it. It's like an adult. Eject.
Justin Jackson:
Is it eschewing or eschewing?
Matt Stauffer:
Eschewing, I think. I don't actually know. I think it's eschewing. That's how I've always said it.
Justin Jackson:
By removing those from our lives, it was like taking these pillars that had always been there and just like, "Nope, don't need these," and not thinking about whether they were load-bearing walls or not, just we're taking everything out. And it's been interesting for me to think about that. It also leads to this profound problem that I've heard reflected from other people. I was listening to Noah Kagan, he's the founder of AppSumo, and he said one time, he's like, "Man, I wish there was a church for atheists." Because he's like, "I'd like to go somewhere every Sunday, meet up with people I like, have somebody communicate a message that is somewhat challenging for my life, and then be able to talk about it afterwards with people over coffee and cookies."
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Like that sounds kind of good.
Justin Jackson:
And again, there's this period of like when you leave a religion, I'm sure this is true with any... Amish people, anybody that's left this very kind of embedded identity that was in religion. And then at first, I think it's common to say, "Well, that was all garbage and I'm never doing that again." And invariably it's like people come back and go, "Man, I wish there was something for non-religious people, or people that are not spiritual in that way, where we could have some of these traditions that really human society has developed over thousands and thousands of years and maybe are just good for us."
Matt Stauffer:
Good for us. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
And then it seems like in the pendulum, this is where people end up going back to like what you might call a main line, like a church with liturgy, so in Canada that might be like the Anglican church. Like, "Okay, well, I'm just going to go back to a church where I don't have to be invested spiritually. They're not going to ask me to come on stage and sing with a microphone, and a smoke machine, but I'm going to be able to sing some hymns, I'm going to be able to be thoughtful, I'm going to be able to have this practice that grounds me." And yeah, it's strange. In my forties, as someone who's been fairly, like even my brother, who's this kind of tough biker dude, we were talking about it at some point. I'm oldest of four kids. Last of the four kids to leave the faith. And my brother goes, "So, you're not spiritual at all?" I said, "No." He said, "That's weird." He's like, "That's messed up."
Justin Jackson:
But to reflect on it and be like, "Wow. I am missing something." And it would be great to sit in a pew. It would be great to sing those songs. That's the other thing, like if you talk to my wife, I sing hymns all the time. I sing old DC Talk songs all the time. I can't help myself. It's super cringey, too, like my kids will hear. They'll, "What are you singing?"
Matt Stauffer:
I don't want your sex for now, not until we take a vow. That's some old school stuff right there.
Justin Jackson:
I played a song for my 16-year-old and it's like TobyMac. It's like, "Yeah, boy." And my 16-year-old was like, "Dad, this explains so much." He's like, "This guy is you."
Matt Stauffer:
It's so corny. That's awesome.
Justin Jackson:
He's like, "This guy is you. It explains your personality." So, there's some things that I would actually probably like to rid myself of. But on the other hand, maybe I don't. My wife asked me why I keep singing hymns. There's certain hymns that come back to me. I don't believe in the spiritual significance of them at all, but I'm coming around to the idea that they're good for my spirit. And it takes me back to this idea that atheism as a thing, it lacks a lot. It lacks these practices, these traditions, these grounding forces that are really helpful for human beings, and there's no real good atheist hymns. Actually, that would be an interesting... If anyone's listening and they have some good atheist hymns-
Matt Stauffer:
I'm going to go Google it now. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
... please send them to me.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Because I actually have heard of somebody who did like a church service for atheists and I was choosing not to Google it until we finished talking, but now I'm actually very curious to see what else is out there.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah, like what are the practices of, and it goes beyond music, like of course there's incredibly moving secular music. But what we're missing is this participatory element.
Matt Stauffer:
Congregational, right? It's like everybody together.
Justin Jackson:
Congregational. It's not just me. It's not just me listening. It's not just me listening and singing lyrics to a song because I like the tune, or even I like the message. It's this communal togetherness of humans expressing things together and there's so many dynamics of that that it's hard to explain if you've never experienced it. Some of it, I think, is just theater that people of faith put on, but some of it is like you're singing a hymn and the guy behind you, his voice cracks because he's emotional. That's just like this one little element of that act of singing a hymn, but all of these things are cumulative and add up to an experience that is incredibly profound.
Justin Jackson:
And so, I've been exploring some of this stuff of like what can I do now for myself, and that also what can I do for my family, and one of the things, and maybe it's why I wanted to talk about it, is one of the conclusions I've come to is that it's very difficult to do anything like this to build practice in isolation. You almost need the congregation. You need like-minded people coming together for the same reason and you need it on the rails in the same way that a programming framework puts a programming language on the rails and it just like it's all here. I install Laravel and it just-
Matt Stauffer:
Just jump on board.
Justin Jackson:
... bop, bop, bop, bop, bop. It's all there. And the idea of church has all the scaffolding right there. It's like-
Matt Stauffer:
That's a good word.
Justin Jackson:
An actual very well thought out, and some of this was done for manipulation, like in youth ministry we would sing energetic songs at first. We also understood that like the singing together has other psychological and sociological effects. That can be used for manipulation. This is the both and. Because on the other hand, it can be used for manipulation but it can also just be good, this idea of coming together, and most churches follow this feeling, is you sing the energetic hymns first. And then you have a little interlude, and then you sing a bit slower hymns, and then you have another scripture reading, and then you sing the really slow, kind of thoughtful, mindful. It's all just preparing you to be in this place where you can receive a message or whatever.
Justin Jackson:
And again, part of this is manipulation, but looking at it from another perspective, I also am recognizing now that I've kind of gone through my cynical stage of saying, "Well, that was really manipulative." I'm now in the stage beyond that where I'm like, "But there's also something really helpful about that," about going into a place and you're burdened by the events of the week, and by the pains of your present or whatever, and you sing something that's really hopeful and triumphant, and makes you raise your voice. Even in psychology, we're learning that the expression of things outwardly, like rage therapy, and all these things that people are exploring now, it's all in church, man. We're going to sing this thing out. You can sing as loud as you want. You can just let it out.
Justin Jackson:
And then, okay, now we're going to bring it down a notch. We're going to get a bit more contemplative. And now we're going to bring a notch and in churches with liturgy, this is what people like is that it's like... Pause. Think. Pray. Be quiet with your thoughts in the midst of other people being quiet with their thoughts. Okay, now let's pray together, and now let's have a message about something in your life that maybe you need to think about. Let me give you some hope. Let me give you some correction. There's something about that that is incredibly powerful. And so, in isolation I've tried to reinvent some of these things.
Matt Stauffer:
Reproduce it.
Justin Jackson:
I think it's actually why people like conferences.
Matt Stauffer:
Very interesting.
Justin Jackson:
And it will also explain why if anyone's heard my speak publicly, if you think of me like a preacher, it makes more sense. That is what I'm used to. That is the way I've been trained. But it's also kind of what I long for, is the talk I gave at the last Laracon in New York was... I think the title was Why Growing Old in Tech is Hard, but really it's a sermon about being in your thirties and forties and how to work through real-life struggles and maybe how to have some hope at the end of it. And it's just it's exactly, not exactly, but it's very similar, and I do have a concern about this, about the performative nature of preaching, and so let's just set that aside, but I gave that talk and there's a lineup of people that want to talk about it.
Justin Jackson:
The cynical part of me goes, "This is just you're just playing the evangelical playbook and now people are responding." The less cynical part of me goes, "But people just need this." People just need to have a connection with other human beings who are willing to get past the skin level, outward level, surface level stuff, and really dig into the guts of pain, and joy, and triumph, and failure, and this is where I'm at today, and we need it. We actually probably do need it weekly. And then when we get it from a conference talk, or we get it from one of the new... What do you call a bad preacher? You know, like the Tony Robbins of the world, like the-
Matt Stauffer:
Prosperity theology? Televangelism? Not sure. Shysters?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah, like there's a-
Matt Stauffer:
Oh, wait. Tony Robbins is not a preacher though, right? Isn't he a motivational speaker?
Justin Jackson:
No.
Matt Stauffer:
Okay.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. Motivational speaker. But I think the longing, what people go to Tony Robbins for is this thing. And I think what I'm saying is I think, and I could be wrong, because this is just where I'm at in my state of life, again, having left faith, having then been cynical about faith, and completely cast it off, and now getting back to this point where I'm like, "Oh, maybe there's something here." And then going through the process of being cynical again and I'm like, "Well, I don't want to be like Tony Robbins," but then moving even past that and going, "But there is a good version of this. And what is it? What's the best form for it?"
Justin Jackson:
And if human culture really is not that old, it's like maybe thousands of years old, really. I think the oldest traditions we have are 3,000 or 4,000 years old. Something like that. Maybe older. I don't know. What would you say?
Matt Stauffer:
I don't know. Well, I know that there's a lot of things where like this thing was invented off in China or the Middle East hundreds of thousands of years ago, so I imagine there's some, but I do know that the majority of Western culture starts within the last 3,000, 4,000 years.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah, so thinking like if in the context of the universe, if human society has the possibility of existing for hundreds of thousands of years, or even millions of years, we're still very early.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
And if there's going to be a big group of people, and again, maybe faith is just so useful, like there's definitely days I wish I could go back. And I'm guessing there will always be a place for people who are religious, and spiritual, and it will continue to serve them in the ways I'm describing. But my guess is that as human society progresses, there's going to be a big group of people who are atheists, and what are the practices, the cultural things we need to set in motion now, so that in hundreds of years, or thousands of years, we have the scaffolding for people who might choose to be this way?
Justin Jackson:
And I think part of me gets hopeful about that because it feels like it's possible, and in North America especially, but most of Western culture, this is fairly recent. This movement, like church attendance, like traditional church attendance is in Europe, in Canada, in the United States, is decreasing, but it's fairly recent that this has happened, right?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
So, what are we going to do for all those folks that have left? And I think it's going to require some experimentation, some experimentation in my own household, but there's also going to need to be connection, where instead of atheism, or non-belief, or post-evangelicalism, or whatever camp you're in being this very private thing that we don't talk about, where even talking about some of this stuff like singing DC Talk songs is so embarrassing, but at the same time again, where's the spaces to do this? I think the stage we're at now, we require more connection. There needs to be people reaching out saying, "Hey, you know, this is what we're doing. Hey."
Justin Jackson:
Even every Saturday morning when I can, I walk down to this coffee shop and I text message a few people, and we get together, and we just talk about intellectual stuff, about life stuff, about whatever. It's like a small group. But that act is so helpful. And when I do it, even though it feels like a small vote for something bigger, it makes me feel like it's building up to something better. A new scaffolding. New rails that maybe I won't fully benefit from, but maybe my kids will benefit from, and their kids after that. Looking again at all these things that we grew up with and separating the good from the bad and saying, "You know what? This practice was actually very good. How can we incorporate that into our context in a way that matters?"
Matt Stauffer:
That was incredible. I have so few questions to ask. I have so few contributions to make. I'm like, "Well, wrapping up." And since we are late on time, I do want to add one little note that you don't need to respond to, but I want to note that my particular place with post-evangelicalism is I still have faith, but I don't believe that the evangelical, like the white evangelical church is a good and healthy thing for faith or for non-faith. So, some people would say I'm ex-evangelical, but I have lots of feelings about all those things that I will not talk about now, but a lot of the needs that I feel are very similar to the ones that you feel. Because I can't find a church that I feel super comfortable attending. I can't find a church I feel comfortable taking my Black children to, that I don't think there's going to be weird white supremacy issues that are going to be embedded, and weird political things.
Matt Stauffer:
There's so many aspects here where I miss a lot of those same things that you do, right?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
And so, while some of them are a little bit easier for me, like I can still pray before dinner with the kids and it's not weird, and I talk about faith with my kids, and they say, "Well, does this exist or does that exist?" And I'm like, "Well, daddy thinks this but he's not sure. Mommy, I think she thinks that, but you can go ask her. And other people think other things and we're all going to have to figure it out on our own." And sometimes we'll say, "Here's some things that I think everybody in your life believes." For example, we talk to them about the ancestors, and that's something that's common across a lot of religions, and also common across a lot of Black cultures. Talking about the fact that your ancestors, we believe, still are in a place where after death they can see you, they can be a part of your life, they care for you, they root for you, whatever. We believe that we're going to see them after death.
Matt Stauffer:
That's not something that we're saying is absolutely true, but your mom believes it, your dad believes it, your aunts and uncles believe it, blah, blah, blah. And a lot of people in the world believe it. So, if that makes sense to you, then you can choose to believe that too. So, we have space for some of these conversations that are a little bit easier because while I'm not into evangelicalism, I still get some of these faithy benefits, but there's still a lot of ways where I resonated so much with what you said, of like I still miss. And you know, I've got a mastermind group that's kind of like a small group. And I've got a group with a couple neighbors that I meet with together once a month to talk about our finances. And we have meals afterwards and one of their daughters make me little, "We love you, Mr. Matt," cards. And it feels like a small group.
Matt Stauffer:
So, I'm like getting a lot of those moments in my life where it's like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I miss this." So, I feel you, dude.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. And to not, again, I think the state I'm at now is to not be ashamed of some of those impulses.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:
Or not even be ashamed to borrow some of that stuff. And also not to be ashamed, like there's some high school students that I was a big part of their life. I was a big mentor for them. And now they're grown up and they have families. And I couldn't talk to them for years. And finally giving myself the permission to be like, "This is okay to still connect with these people."
Matt Stauffer:
To be who you are and what you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. And it's okay to be acknowledging that some of these desires you have are just good desires for community, for connection, for tradition, for daily, weekly, monthly, seasonal practice. And to see the evidence of that, like Christmas, and Halloween, and Easter, these are just religious holidays that have been turned into secular traditions, and there's a reason why we did that. It's like it's because there's something helpful about them that the practice is actually perhaps the most important part of it, that the feelings that we get aren't just throwaway feelings, but the feelings of warmth, and family, and food, and nostalgia from when you were a kid, these are all actually things that we need.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And it's okay to want them and seek them, right?
Justin Jackson:
It's okay to want them and seek them even if you are leaving behind some things from the past, and especially if you're leaving behind some of the truly toxic things in the culture that needed to be called out. There's some of that stuff that just needed to be called out. But again, there's some of that practice that was good. And so, yeah, I think it's okay to recognize that.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. First of all, thank you. Everything you just said was amazing, and insightful, and I really appreciate your openness.
Justin Jackson:
Oh. Well, cathartic for me. Thanks for listening.
Matt Stauffer:
Good. Of course. And as always, I could talk to you about this for like another three more hours, but time limits and everything, but I was going to say it's also okay, and it's not shameful to go get those things from religious spaces if you're not in a religious space. Like I am not an Anglican and I would have no qualms whatsoever with going and sitting in an Anglican church and receiving what benefit I can from there. And to be honest, I don't know any Anglicans that would be like, "Uh oh, there's an atheist in the pews. There's a guy who doesn't know what his faith is and so doesn't go to church in the pews." They'd be like, "Cool. You want to listen to God? We're here for it."
Matt Stauffer:
I don't think anybody has any issue that if anybody's in any space and they want to go participate in those things, for whatever reason, nobody's going to hold it against you, you know?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. Again, there's the Catholic church, and the Anglican church, and a lot of churches, Lutheran church, they got a lot of bad history. There's some bad stuff in there. But that doesn't mean that, necessarily, that it's a bad idea to go to one of these incredible cathedrals and sit down and benefit somewhat from that environment. Of course, if you were truly traumatized, then that wouldn't be a good experience, but I think some of that exploration is good. I like that addition. And maybe I will. Maybe I will. My parents would be delighted.
Matt Stauffer:
That's the thing. I'm like, "You can say I'm an atheist. I'm going to go sit in this church for atheist reasons." And all the Christians in your life will still be like-
Justin Jackson:
They'd be excited. Yes.
Matt Stauffer:
And I mean, I'm speaking to myself as much. I have not left the faith but I have not found places other than friend relationships where I feel like I have space for spirituality, and so there's been a lot of me that just keeps going, "Can I go to a place that either just for me, or even for me and my kids, that I don't think is toxic?" And maybe we have to have conversations about it afterwards, but at least brings something into their lives and gives them some opportunity to make their own decisions versus me making them all for them, right? So, it's just there's no hard and fast.
Matt Stauffer:
And you mentioned like you felt like you had a hard and fast rule for close to a decade of, "I just can't touch that stuff." And it sounds like a lot of what you're saying right now is, "You know what? I can figure out what's good for me. I can figure out what I need. And sometimes it looks like those things that I ran away from."
Justin Jackson:
Sure. This new reality is definitely a lot messier. It was a lot easier for my parents and my parents' parents when it was just it was easy. It's just the script is there. But that doesn't mean that we can't engage with the mess, and figure some stuff out, and maybe what comes out is something really good.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. I love that. All right, to keep us from talking any further, last question. What insight or support did you receive or need when you were younger that you hope more people will give to others today?
Justin Jackson:
This is where I think the model, especially in evangelicalism... This is not universal. I'll just talk about my experience.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. Just for you.
Justin Jackson:
But the way I got taken care of from leaders and mentors, it wasn't all good advice they gave me, but there is no doubt that I would not be the person I am today if it wasn't for a lot of that care. And for me, the messy example of this is in 2016 or 2017, I went through this truly traumatic experience, and an old Christian mentor called me just to see if I could fix his website. And I have had a real hard time with this guy since leaving the faith. His Facebook posts and political beliefs are heinous to me, like I cannot stand what he says. But he instantly recognized that something was wrong and cared for me, and really loved me in a genuine way, in a sacrificial way. Gave hours and hours of his time. Took it upon himself to call back every week to see how I was doing. And it's possible that I would have done something very destructive to myself if he hadn't stepped in.
Justin Jackson:
And so, I bring that up partly because online, this guy is a cartoon of some of the most despicable stuff, but personally I'm saying, and there was nothing... I know some people could be cynical about this. There was nothing unhealthy about the care he showed for me, or it's not like he had any sort of power over me, or anything like that. I'm telling you, this was as genuine as anything you've experienced. That, to me, is important. I think the way that mentorship and leadership worked for me, there's also a lot of abuse for others in this scenario, but the way it worked for me was really profound, and genuine, and pure. Even though some of the stuff they said I think was not right, even though maybe they pumped me up a bit too much, maybe they gave me too much of an ego. There were some downsides but there's a lot of that that was just very healthy, and when I look at my own kids I'm like, "Man, there's just times I wish there was other adults in their lives besides me that cared for them in that way." Mentors, leaders, trusted adults that can help kind of guide them along the way.
Justin Jackson:
So, that's something that I'll never forget, and it's probably also the thing that I think about in terms of as parents, we are so limited. You can do the best job you can, but you really do need other people, other community, other adults that care about your kids, and I think it's important, and for sure I would not be here unless I had that.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. It takes a village to raise a child, right?
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah. It's true.
Matt Stauffer:
Well, I've said this already, but this was freaking brilliant. I look forward to having you on again. Next time, we'll talk crypto. But thanks.
Justin Jackson:
That will be the full arc, is going from evangelicalism to the modern atheistic religion, which is crypto. I cannot wait to talk about that.
Matt Stauffer:
I'm looking forward to it, man.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah. Have me back. And also, if people have some atheist hymns they want to send me, please DM me. Send them in.
Matt Stauffer:
Well, perfect timing, because I was going to say how can people follow you, how can they support you, so where do they send it? Where are you? If people wanted to pay you money, just tell us about your stuff.
Justin Jackson:
Sure. If you're into podcasting, go to Transistor.fm. My blog is JustinJackson.ca, where I write about business 80% of the time and this personal life stuff about 20% of the time. Maybe I'll change that. And Twitter, I'm the letter M, the letter I, Justin. MIJustin.
Matt Stauffer:
I learned the story of why you're MIJustin. It was delightful. I'm StaufferMatt because I was an idiot and got some stupid acronym when Twitter started and by the time I realized I wanted MattStauffer, some guy had taken it, and was squatting on it, and so I'm still fighting him, trying to get it.
Justin Jackson:
If we could go back. If we could go back.
Matt Stauffer:
Oh my gosh. If we only know. I mean, if we could go back, I'd buy Bitcoin 10 years ago.
Justin Jackson:
Yeah, see, I wouldn't.
Matt Stauffer:
I mean, I'd probably make some other changes, but you know. Speaking of crypto.
Justin Jackson:
This is the debate. This is the crypto debate that we're going to have next time.
Matt Stauffer:
That's where we're going to go. Yeah. Or would I not buy Bitcoin. Yeah. That's where we're going to go next time. All right. Justin, you're the man. I really appreciate your time, dude. Thank you so much.
Justin Jackson:
This was really wonderful for me. Thanks, Matt.
Matt Stauffer:
And for the rest of you, I'll see you next time, and until then, be good to each other.