Have you ever had to struggle with not feeling heard? With feeling undervalued? Whether it's in your personal or professional life, psychological safety is something that we can, and should be aiming to provide in the spaces we occupy. In this episode, Taylor Poindexter, Engineering Manager at Spotify, co-founder of Black Code Collective, and connoisseur of fine whiskey, talks us through her journey in receiving psychological safety and helping provide it for others. We discuss how psychological safety allowed her to advance in her career and the importance of communication to maintain a mentally healthy social environment.
Matt Stauffer
Hey, and welcome to Things Worth Learning. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer, and this is a show where a curious computer programmer, that's me, interviews fascinating people about their passions. My guest today is Taylor Poindexter, engineering manager at Spotify, and co-founder of Black Code Collective. So, Taylor, would you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself, whether it's your personal or your professional life?
Taylor Poindexter
Absolutely. Thank you for having me today, Matt.
Matt Stauffer
No worries.
Taylor Poindexter
And as you mentioned, I am the engineering manager for Spotify or a engineering manager for Spotify, I'm co-founder of Black Code Collective, and I also am very passionate about whiskey. So I run a whiskey Instagram and YouTube page where I try to tell people about new whiskey cocktails or just about the spirit in general. I'm an aunt and it's one of my favorite things in the world. Love to travel, scuba dive. And that's basically me in a nutshell.
Matt Stauffer
I love it. We'll put all the links to all this stuff that Taylor does in the show notes. But I just want to say, womanwithwhiskey went from, on Instagram, went from like, "Hey, this is my friend who's got a couple random whiskey videos," to thousands of followers and doing cross-promotional stuff for the whiskey people. You really kind of rose up real quick there. That was really cool to see. You're pretty legit.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah. And honestly, it only happened because of COVID. That was like one-
Matt Stauffer
Really?
Taylor Poindexter
... of the good that came out of COVID. Yeah. So before COVID, every year for my birthday, I would host a whiskey tasting party and try to convert as many of my friends as possible to whiskey lovers. And they missed the knowledge I would give them doing my birthday party. So they're like, "Can you just make some videos or maybe do some Zooms?"
Matt Stauffer
Really?
Taylor Poindexter
And then I was like, "Why don't I just do an Instagram page?"
Matt Stauffer
I had no idea that's where it came from. That's awesome. I love that.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah. So it just worked out.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. Well, it's cool. It's totally delightful. And make sure, all of y'all, we'll put all the links in the show notes, but following Taylor as engineering_bae on Twitter and womanwithwhiskey on Instagram and all these things. There's so much good stuff going on. And a quick note, Black Code Collective, if anybody's not familiar with it, could you tell us real quick what it's about?
Taylor Poindexter
Absolutely. So it's basically a space for black engineers to come and gather so they have a safe space, a place to network, ask each other questions and try to level each other up in their careers. During normal times we're based out of DC, but again, with COVID, we're doing things virtually. And so that's how we're able to still connect.
Matt Stauffer
Love it. Also links to that will be in the show notes. We had some technical difficulties today, so I'm just going to get right to it and start with our questions so we make sure we don't run out of time. Do you have any sort of life mantra or phrase or idea that you try to live your life by?
Taylor Poindexter
So my favorite number is three, so these things usually come in three for me.
Matt Stauffer
All right.
Taylor Poindexter
The first one is, so your net worth is your network. I genuinely believe that while I'm not the smartest person ever, I am good at networking and I really take care of my network, and I feel like that has served me well. And I've also been able to serve others. The second thing is scared money don't make money. So I'd rather die with a list of failures than a bunch of regrets. And then the third thing is something that my mom and my brother used to tell me in a really pivotal time of my life was those that matter don't mind and those that matter don't matter. Excuse me. Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter.
Matt Stauffer
Mind don't matter. That's really good. This podcast is therapy for me every freaking week that I do one of these. Because that's literally what I'm figuring out right now. I'm like, oh, when I need to make time for myself and I have to cancel a social obligation, turns out that those who mind are the ones that I shouldn't be worrying about, and those that do matter to me are like, "Yeah, take time for yourself. I love you and I care for you." I'm like, "Oh, okay." So thank you, Taylor, for reminding me of that. I love that phrase.
Taylor Poindexter
No, no, of course. And I feel like both of us are like very empathetic people, even just making this happen. You know? And I really enjoyed that.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. We had some moments.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah. We had some moments, but I really enjoyed what that brought out in each of our characters, like eventually getting here.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. You dealing with the fact that I can hardly even talk right now and all my computer stuff fell apart today. Yes.
Matt Stauffer
All right. Well, I love those. I think it's funny because I've been talking about getting a tattoo to people and what I've realized is that I want one or two or three tattoos that I see every single day. So like right here or something that remind me of the things that I want to approach life with. And I'm trying to figure out the energy, but that third one that you have there, I'm now trying to think about what's the acronym of that? Those that matter don't mind.
Matt Stauffer
Anyway, I don't think that's going to be it, but I love this idea of living from this concept of the fact that people are going to... So the first two are great. The first two are wonderful. I love them. But the third one I think is hitting me the most because it's space for people who care about you to, as empathetic people, as maybe... I don't know about you, but I have a natural people pleasing streak as an empathetic person to recognize that the people who love us are going to make space for us to care for ourselves. And in fact, that's actually what I want for us. So that's a good reminder. I appreciate that.
Taylor Poindexter
I completely agree.
Matt Stauffer
All right. So you know this podcast is about one topic you're really passionate about. We obviously have a million things we can talk about. I'll have you back another day to talk about whiskey, but right now, can you tell me about what we're going to be talking about today?
Taylor Poindexter
Absolutely. So today, I wanted to talk to you about psychological safety. I feel like that was the factor that made me able to really skyrocket in my career. Before I had it, I felt like my career was kind of floundering and I really lacked the confidence that I needed to actually be successful and confident in a job. But then once I got it, I really felt like I was able to get my bearings and really take off from there. And especially now that I'm a manager, it's something that I really work hard to try to infuse into teams because I think that is a key component to a lot of teams being able to be successful.
Matt Stauffer
So when you say psychological safety, and I'm being totally transparent here, this is not some BS to pretend I don't know what you're talking about, in my emotions I feel a feeling. I'm like, "Yes, I want to be psychologically safe." But on my brain, I don't actually fully understand. I've never heard that phrase used before in this context. So I'm really excited to hear. So assuming someone else in listening is as dumb as me about this context, can you just tell me a little about what does psychological safety mean? Like maybe either, how do you define it or what does it look like to know that you are or are not psychologically safe in a particular space?
Taylor Poindexter
And for one, not dumb, we're all learning new things. So we're setting the psychological safety here.
Matt Stauffer
There you go. There you go. Right. Okay.
Taylor Poindexter
But let's see, I've never looked up the Webster Dictionary for it, but what I actually think of it as is like a person feeling comfortable to be vulnerable in some way, shape, or form, and not fear retribution. So typically on a team, that looks like potentially being comfortable admitting that they don't know something or maybe that they're going to miss a deadline or things that can be uncomfortable to admit in a team or to share constructive criticism with a team member. Things like that.
Matt Stauffer
That's amazing because that addresses so many aspects of what we try to do at Tighten, but also I think the damage we try to undo from people's previous work experiences. And I would've never had a grouping like you just described of like, oh, those are all connected to the same thing. So once again, now this is owning a company therapy.
Matt Stauffer
So before we even talk about what it looks like to create psychological safety for people, could you give me, and you just gave a couple there, but what are some examples of a sign that you're in a place where you're not feeling psychologically safe? And I know we talked before that we're going to talk about broader life, but maybe we're going to start in the workplace. So in a workplace setting, could you give me a couple examples, even if you're just repeating the ones you just said, of what it looked like to not feel psychologically safe in the workforce?
Taylor Poindexter
I actually thought it was a really good point that you pointed to the work that you're trying to do at Tighten with to undo the damage that a lot of people have encountered at other jobs. Because that was actually the first sign that I was in a psychologically safe place at my last job is that I was actually afraid to ask questions, but folks kept reminding me that like, "It's okay to ask questions. We're expecting you to have questions. You're new." And the people that I felt were engineers that I looked up to.
Taylor Poindexter
So before I was an engineering manager, I was a senior back-end engineer, but when I started my last job, I was a mid-level back-end engineer. And so, seeing people that I thought were the best engineers I've ever worked with admit that they don't know something and then tell me, "It's okay. I don't know a bunch of stuff. I expect you not to know a bunch of stuff," and continuing to work with me to make sure that I felt comfortable to ask questions when I had them. So that was a good sign that I was in a place that I was psychologically safe.
Taylor Poindexter
And also, I know that especially in certain companies on teams and stuff like that, things are going to happen to that will make you feel not psychologically safe sometimes. But then having people step in those moments and me feeling like I don't have to defend myself. Like, okay, I'm at this job, this person says something in this meeting that I don't agree with and I feel uncomfortable, but one of my team members or my manager noticed that and they're sticking up for me. And so that makes me feel psychologically safe and ups my confidence that this person has my back. So things like that.
Matt Stauffer
No, that makes a ton of sense that it's not being protected from anything negative happening, but it is a place where it is made clear, especially by people in leadership that these are things that won't be tolerated or whatever. That's cool.
Matt Stauffer
So one of the things you gave as an example is feeling like you can admit that you don't know something. So when we talk about that psychological safety, I think especially in the workforce, there's probably safety from what? And you said you can share these things without fear of retribution.
Matt Stauffer
I imagine that the people who are causing their employees to feel psychologically unsafe are not doing so intentionally. This retribution, like let's say that if I were to share I didn't know how to do this, and then my boss kind of came at me or one of the seniors came at me a certain way, do you have a sense for what well intentioned but harmful desire kind of leads to people making other people feel psychologically unsafe that once they become aware of maybe they can stop doing? Is that like a reasonable thing that you can think through?
Taylor Poindexter
That is a good question. Let's see. Because the thing that I'm thinking of is that usually when I see that type of aggression exhibited when somebody doesn't know or admits they don't know something, it comes from that old school way of managing or like keeping a team in line where you crack the whip or whatnot. And I guess I'm trying...
Matt Stauffer
I mean maybe that's it, right? Maybe it's this is what I've been taught and modeled that this is what managing looks like and that's just it.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah. And I'm trying to think of well intentioned folks that may may be doing things to make somebody feel psychologically unsafe and they may not realize it. But I think for those situations, they can be obviously really nuanced, but that's where the communication piece comes in. So even asking my team, "How do you like to be managed? Or how do you like to be communicated with?" I was able to proactively ask that, but I realized that if I hadn't asked that in certain situations I could have made them feel unsafe without even realizing it. Like one of the people I know that I used to work with is actually very triggered by management just be like, "Hey, can I talk to you really quick?" And it's not that it's always something bad, but that can make them worry, but that's because of past traumas that they've had in the workplace, so yeah.
Matt Stauffer
No, that's great. And for anybody who's thinking about that particular thing, I've talked to people about that particular example and they say, "Well, what am I supposed to do?" Say, "Hey, can I talk to you about something? Don't worry, it's not a problem." Or, "Hey, can I talk to you about X, Y, Z in five minutes or whatever?" So it's just understanding those fears. And so that's one of the things that was kind of you were talking about is safety from what? And you said retribution. And so in that particular moment, that person is afraid that you're getting called in to have your bad performance discussed or afraid that you're going to get fired or afraid you're going to get demoted. And so a little bit of empathy there saying, "What would it be like for me to get that message? How can I both ask for the meeting and also address that concern in the way that I ask for it?" That makes a ton of sense.
Matt Stauffer
So talking from the perspective of an engineering manager, one of the things you said was you were able to go from feeling psychologically unsafe to being as a worker, feeling psychologically safe, and now being a manager, trying to create spaces for psychological safety. Not everybody who's listening is in a management's perspective, so I actually don't want to go the whole way down the management route right now. I imagine both based on my experiences and also some things you said, that you don't have to be a leader necessarily to do things that help other people feel psychologically safe or unsafe.
Matt Stauffer
As a general member of a team, whether it's interacting with another person who's at your same level or especially somebody who's a little bit more junior than you are, what are some steps or approaches or tools or tactics that you think are going to be helpful for us to consider as we're trying to ensure that the people around us feel safe psychologically at the workforce?
Taylor Poindexter
Typically just lean into if I see something to actually say something. So whether it's like, again, noticing that a coworker feels uncomfortable in a meeting with the way somebody is speaking with them, or even little things. And I know this is harder to do when we're all remote, but if I notice a fellow teammate may not be acting like themselves or anything like that, or they just see him a little off, like not trying to get into their business or anything, but just kind of just like, "Hey, not trying to get into your business, but if you need anything I'm here for you." And I feel like that has done a lot of good as far as laying the foundation in letting them know that I care and that a different way of letting them know that I have their back. And I feel like that's served me well.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. Have you noticed that there are any circumstances or interpersonal dynamics or cultural differences where you're like, if this particular thing is at play, there's a very good chance that there's going to be a psychological safety issue here that we need to address? Is it more likely with juniors? Is it more likely with cross-cultural communication or cross-gender communication or more likely with anything else, any particular... Are there settings where you're like, "That's a setting where I want to keep my radar on," basically?
Taylor Poindexter
I definitely think that there are certain things that call it out more. Being more junior can be one, but then also being a minority on a team can also be one. So I know we talked about the retribution piece, but then kind of in line with that, especially as like a minority as a woman or a black person or both, I've been sometimes like, when I felt like not only is this person lashing out at me in front of people, that's uncomfortable, but then I also feel like I'm representing a larger group as the only minority here. And so that added pressure on those things can really feel unbearable.
Taylor Poindexter
Oh, and being junior, especially when you haven't had that foundation set. So in line with your previous question, I'll always try to really make sure that I let everybody on the team, but especially juniors know that they can ask me questions and I'm here to support them, and these things are natural, and really lean into that thing that my old manager did in letting them know I don't know everything. I'm a senior software engineer, I'm an engineering manager, I'm figuring it out like you are. Especially in the tech field, we're most of the time always still learning and trying to push forward, and that's okay.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. One of the things that we've learned at Tighten very quickly is that giving an apprentice the opportunity to show that they know something that a lead doesn't has been really foundational in that way, because they're like, "Wait a minute, you mean I know this particular thing and you don't?" And it's kind of like an amplified version of that.
Matt Stauffer
I know I'm the one who just said that, but have you found any context or circumstances in which you have the ability to intentionally create those dynamics? Whether it's the apprentice or the junior knowing more, or are there any intentional steps that you can take or practices that ensure that it's a regular practice for more senior people to admit their shortcomings? Is it more just like each person just needs to learn that or are there systemic structural things that we can do that help it be more natural for people?
Taylor Poindexter
I just try to set that vibe as a manager on the team. Sometimes people ask me questions, and to this day I'm like, "You know what? I have no clue, but I'm going to..."
Matt Stauffer
I'm going to Google it and I'll get back to.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah, I'm going to look into that. Or especially if people that maybe more introverted or maybe more junior on the team, if they do speak up and ask questions and stuff like that, I very much support that and try to make sure that they know that their contributions are very valued. Even if they are the most junior person or whatnot on the team. We all bring something to this team. That's why you're here. And so I just try to reinforce that in them every day.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. I know that we're kind of focusing this on the respective of the workforce, and I do want to stay there for a second, but I just want to put a reminder in both of our brains, this is triggering or this is reminding me a lot of your third item of who are the people who matter and who are the people who make me feel safe to be able to say, "I don't have the spoons today to do this social outing that we had planned"? My fear of the retribution of their anger that you're going to dump on me versus the people who don't make me have that fear, there's psychological safety element there as well. I know we're going to get there. I do want to ask you about workforce stuff, but I just appreciate the ties that are running through the various things that you've said today.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah. No, I absolutely agree.
Matt Stauffer
Okay. Engineering manager, engineering manager. I'm sorry. I said that because I know I would forget otherwise. So as you are an engineering manager and you're trying to create a very intentional space, one of the things you said was, "I want to go ask every single one of my employees or one of my directs how they like to be managed." And I want to be really transparent that at times when I've heard people talk about managing the way you manage, I felt overwhelmed and like I'm not a good manager because I have a hard time being as intentional as you are. And it's okay, I know that I'm a good manager, but I've felt this way. So I'm hoping to address anybody else who feels that same way. I have a hard time being as intentional as you are of looking at each person and asking what do you want? And then remembering what they want in every single setting.
Matt Stauffer
And so, one of the things that I've found is while I like to do that, what is most helpful for me is finding things that I can just say, "I'm going to do this for everybody all the time." And then if I contextualize a little bit for each person, good on me, but at least I want to set up good kind of patterns and practices.
Matt Stauffer
So if there's a new engineering manager here listening to this and they say, "Wow, I love this idea. And I don't know what it looks like to create psychological safety," so far they've heard you say share that you don't always know the answer, also speak up if you ever see a dynamic happening that you think is not healthy. Can you talk about that one? And then are there any other tips or tricks you'd have for them? But I think that we should dig a little bit more in what is the value of speaking up when you see a negative thing happening and what is the cost if you don't, if that makes sense?
Taylor Poindexter
Absolutely. And before we dive into that, kind of tied to this, I know that it can be exhausting. I will admit, especially as a human being, trying to personalize all these management things for each person on my team can be a lot. So one thing I really try to lean into that I can apply across the board is constantly asking the team, like either in retrospectives or in our one-on-ones, like is there anything specifically that I can do to make your life easier? And then doing my very best to make sure that thing happens. So at the very least, they know that this person cares about my life being easier here at this job, and she's actually going to do it.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. Even if you don't know it always proactively, you're like, "Well, I didn't think of that. I believe there's a world in which I could think of those things, but at least I asked and responded to their request." Right? Like it's at least setting up a practice of what could I do? What could I do? And then doing it. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah, absolutely. Building up that street cred with the person. And then in line with speaking up when you see something, I will admit, I don't mind speaking up in this situation and inserting myself in. I'm not like a confrontational person, but I don't mind confrontation if it happens, but not everybody's like that. So I will say too, it doesn't actually have to be inserting yourself in that moment. It could just be maybe checking with that person afterwards or having their back if they do want to talk with or anything like that. So I want to acknowledge that we're also all a bit different, but even just empathizing with them can help a lot.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because I think that there's probably a... I think, off the top of my head, there's three values to speaking up. One of them is making the person know that they're heard and understood and supported. The next one is helping the offender know that they are doing something that they probably aren't intentionally... Hopefully we assume that everyone's not being a jerk on purpose, right? And again, that can also happen publicly or it can happen privately later. And then the third one I think is setting the stage for the rest of the people, saying that's not how we behave. Right?
Matt Stauffer
And so I was curious, can you talk a little bit more about like what it looks like to create a culture by what you say publicly? But let's say that I hear what you just said and I take it as permission to never speak up again about anything publicly and always just go talk directly to that person. Tell me a little bit about what we're losing if I never say anything publicly.
Taylor Poindexter
That is true. So by not speaking up publicly, you definitely, I don't want to say like backdoor... I feel like it's a lot less effective. So I do feel like setting the tone publicly. I was thinking in that case, like more as a, maybe like an individual contributor. But especially as managers, I feel like it is so important to be direct, and obviously polite, but direct about what we expect from our people. So as a leader, even if you don't do it in the moment, we're all human. Maybe you, I don't know, just didn't speak up in that moment, that needs to be addressed publicly to actually make sure that it's an effective change and doesn't ripple out behind scenes.
Matt Stauffer
Mm-hmm (affirmative). I love the clarification there because I think it's very different as a member of a team or a community versus a leader. Totally. So as a member, you don't always have the agency or it may not always be appropriate for you to speak out and correct somebody, right? As a manager, you also still have to be nuanced because there's some people, if you correct them publicly, they're just going to shut down. So there's definitely nuance about it, but some way of communicating.
Matt Stauffer
And that this is something that just doesn't happen at Tighten, it also happens in the Laravel community. I'm seen as a leader in the Laravel community, and so I speak out when people are mistreating other people in the Laravel community on Twitter. I'm like, "No, that's not going to happen." And sometimes people are like, "Oh, you're just coming in here and white knighting." And I'm like, "No, I'm trying to make sure that people know that it is not acceptable to interact with other people that way," and I want it to be seen that people with leadership agency are going to make sure that stuff doesn't happen.
Matt Stauffer
And I think for anyone else to hear, we can be afraid of being seen as like a crusader or social justice warrior or whatever, whether in the workplace, whatever else, but when that happens, it is showing people that it is not acceptable to be unkind and mistreat people, even if you're doing it accidentally. And so there is like an empathy to the offender. There's an empathy to the recipient of the difficulty. There's a cultural definition. There's so many aspects of this that are going on and it's very nuanced for sure.
Taylor Poindexter
Absolutely. And I know, again, like you said, it's nuanced, but even being able to speak up against somebody who is maybe more of a leader or whatnot actually says a lot for psychological safety too, I feel like. Because at my last job, I know Spotify's a lot bigger than my last job, it was a startup, but I would... And he loved it, but I would publicly disagree with the CEO in all hands and we'd have a debate about it. And so, at first it was scary, but it's like, no, this is great. And I feel like it helped other people realize that like, oh, no, he really wants to hear what we have to say. And I feel like that makes a huge difference in a company too.
Matt Stauffer
And that's cool because you had developed the rapport with him to be able to do that, and that allowed future people who came along to now learn this is an acceptable way of communicating.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer
It's interesting. At Tighten we have an apprenticeship program and as the company has gotten bigger, I have had to let go of more and more things that I was directly managing because I just can't. And it was like the last thing I had held on to that I didn't want to let go of, and I just realized over the last couple months and through some conversations with folks that I need to let go of it and let other people manage it. And one of the things that happened was by allowing other people to manage the apprenticeship program, that means they need to be able to come to me and say, "You're tasking apprentices incorrectly for what they need," or whatever, and come at me with an attitude that I'm, as an owner of a company, I'm just kind of like, "Who are you to talk to me like that?" And then I go, "Wait a minute. This is exactly what I'm asking for."
Matt Stauffer
So even as someone who I think of myself as the person who does this in the industry and does this in my company, now finding myself in a place where I'm like, "Wow, I need to watch myself." So to owners, to CEOs, to higher level people, it can be effort and difficult and it require a realignment, even if we think of ourselves as like comfortable and safe people, you still have to keep asking yourself that where are my feelings from here coming from? And what does it look like for me in this moment to swallow my ego and actually help people feel safe? You're new in engineering management. Have you had any of those moments yet? Or are you still so close to not being in a management position and you're like, "No, I'm one of the people right now"?
Taylor Poindexter
No, I will say the thing that I feel like I've realized, especially over the pandemic and being a manager, is that I'm a human. Not that I ever questioned I was a human or anything like that, but I've always been like, "Oh, I love management. I love management." And I do, but I feel like in the pandemic I've been faced with new challenges that I have to check my ego, have to check my emotions and make sure that I'm putting all that stuff aside and trying to be the best manager that I can and actually help people. I know that sometimes people hear the word psychological safety and they view it as like the soft skill fluff or whatnot. But I genuinely believe, imagine if your employees didn't feel safe to come to you and say like, "Actually, this apprenticeship is not being as effective as it could be," and the inefficiencies continued. But the fact that they felt that they could come to you with constructive criticism, you can nip it in the bud right then, it makes a world of fricking difference and actually enables teams to be even more effective.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. I totally hear you on that.
Matt Stauffer
All right. So we've talked a lot about psychological safety in the workforce, and I was curious if we could kind of dive a little bit into psychological safety in normal life outside of the workforce a little bit. One of the things you said was just talking about being able to share, like if I was translating it to a non-work setting, being able to share things that I felt like I might not know the way I should, or I might not have a handle on, or I might not be able to say it in a way that is what the other person expects of me without fearing their retribution.
Matt Stauffer
Can you tell me a little bit about what psychological safety in either friendships or family relationships or anything like that looks like in general, and then also where does that lead you? Does that lead you to want to talk about how to be a good friend or how to identify good friends? So first of all, just what does psychological safety in relationships or family relationships or communities look like? And what does that kind of make you want to talk more about from there?
Taylor Poindexter
That's a good question. Because I have always applied it to the workforce, but as you ask the question I was thinking especially... I know I keep bringing COVID up, I'm sorry. But over the past two years, I feel like I've really been trying to pour energy into people, into things that I feel like pour back into me. And so I've been doing a lot of reflecting and a lot of journaling on that. And similar to psychological safety in the workforce, I think it's being able to be vulnerable enough to who admit that you're not okay or that you may not have, like you said, the spoons to be able to do something, even if you feel like you may be letting a loved one down and not fearing that... So I also have like a people pleasing bone in my body.
Taylor Poindexter
And so, getting more comfortable with like, no, these people know me well enough, they know that I try to stick to my commitments, and I feel safe enough to admit to them I'm not doing okay. I don't even know what I need to be okay. And having them support me in the best way that they know how. Or even sometimes like, I don't know if you've ever needed to vent to a loved one, but you may not even want to hear their opinions, you may just need to get it off your chest. So I've had-
Matt Stauffer
Don't fix it for me. Just listen, please.
Taylor Poindexter
Just listen to me. But I've had some people not like the fact that sometimes I'm just like, "Hey, I really need to vent, but I don't want any opinions right now," to kind of let them know what need. They feel like that's bossy or like you're coming to me, but you're making... And to me, it's kind of just like, like you said, like if you cared about me, then I would think that you would be able to put that aside because you can tell that I'm in need and I'm typically not the type of person to come to you and admit that I'm not okay. So people giving you the space to be vulnerable in whatever shape or form that may come in.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. That brings up an idea that I've been rolling around, which is as extroverts, as empathetic people, we have a lot of friends. I imagine this to be true about you, but when you are always the one who's providing in the relationship, it's very easy to have a friendship when you have something to require from them or to request from them, I feel like that's when you're really kind of figuring out who the real ones are.
Matt Stauffer
And I love what you said because it's like you keep telling the same story, which is, again, speaking straight to my soul, which is when I need something from you, which I don't normally do, when I need to vent, which I don't normally do, when I need you to actually kind of control your response and just listen to me when I need to bail on this obligation, when I need to be vulnerable and share something that's embarrassing to me, are you a person who makes me feel like I'm okay and I'm safe and I get really emotional about how grateful I am for you, or do you make me feel judged and do you make me feel like I'm a bad person for not being able to continue to just invest in you nonstop?
Matt Stauffer
That doesn't mean those are bad people. It just means that's a different kind of relationship and you got to kind of keep it a little bit more at arms length.
Taylor Poindexter
A-fricking-men.
Matt Stauffer
So that makes a lot of sense.
Taylor Poindexter
And just sometimes, like you said, like you're kind of alluded to just knowing. Like you said, not that they're necessarily bad people, but then also knowing that about the relationship and handling it accordingly, I think is really important. And kind of how we both were talking about, like being the friend that may not ask for help a lot. I feel like something I've been reflecting on the last couple of months... I actually saw a tweet, I love Twitter, but somebody was like, "We're always emphasizing check on your strong friends, check on your strong friends." But what I want strong friends to actually do is to actually let folks know when they're not well. And that's where that psychological safety piece comes in, but then also on us strong folks to be, when you know you have that psychological safety, just admitting that instead of just saying you're okay and pivoting back to taking care of that person, just because that's our habit.
Matt Stauffer
Mm-hmm (affirmative). It's a joy when you discover someone who you weren't sure the depth of your relationship you haven't experienced. And you're like, "Oh, this is someone who I'm really safe with." I know that I've multiple times had to ask you to make adjustments around this. And each time I was like, "Oh, we're cool like that." And that's a really valuable thing because there's people who I thought I knew way better than I knew you who had been very inflexible with stuff. And so I'm like, okay, as we grow, as we go through different situations, as we hit global pandemics, as we go through a divorce, as our computers fall apart, as we change jobs, whatever, each of these are moments where we see kind of where are we receiving what we need to be receiving from people, where are the spaces that we're safe?
Matt Stauffer
And I know people kind of like tease about this idea of safe space, but it comes from a very good place. Like it's a place of safety where I don't have to have all my shit together. Right? I don't have to know all the answers, whether those programming answers or that's what the hell am I doing in my life answers, right? You can be a person, to your friends with whom they can just bring all their shit to you and you can just say, "Cool. I love you. I support you." Or your family members, right?
Matt Stauffer
I've had a lot of friends lately talk about their experiences of coming out through LGBTQ or whatever else of something that they were worried about their family not being supportive of, and the number one value I've heard from those who had a positive experience was the experience of they love me no matter what, right? I felt like I was telling something that was going to disappoint them because they're really religious or whatever else, and I just believed that no matter what I said, they would love me and support me. And that sounds really simple, but I feel like it's seeming to me. And I'm curious what you think about this. That's kind of one of the underlying aspects of psychological safety is not having to believe that you have to perform a particular way or seem a particular way, but no matter who or what you are, you're still good. Is that-
Taylor Poindexter
Yes.
Matt Stauffer
Is that a good read that that's kind of... Okay.
Taylor Poindexter
Freaking perfect.
Matt Stauffer
That's cool.
Taylor Poindexter
And kind of the same thing I was... That was so perfect. And honestly, like you were saying that I was willing to be flexible, but also on my end, as somebody who feels like they need to be a perfectionist all the time, when the first time we tried to meet and I didn't have my audio or my mic set up, you could have easily brought me to my knees because I was panicking and all this stuff, but you were super chill and just like, "You know what? It's fine." And you were helpful. And like you said, then I got to the point where it's like, "Oh, no, me and Matt, we're here. We got this." But then putting me at ease and knowing that similar to how you... Exactly what you were saying. No matter what, we're good. I am not less because I messed up the audio or didn't. We're good. So you put it perfectly.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. One of the other guests showed up and he was like, "Hey, so I'm in trouble with my family because I scheduled this podcast recording with you at the same time my family was in town to have dinner." I'm like, "Why are you on this call with me right now?" But we've all had experiences with people where that's not the response. They're like, "Oh yeah. Okay, cool. Well, let's get to it." Right? And this is not because I'm a great person or you're a great person, it's just like if we have the perspective of treating a person as a person more than what we need from them. And that's true in the relational context, that's true in the work context.
Matt Stauffer
And I understand that someone can say, well, this is very woo-woo. Of course, we're all family or whatever, but we still need people to do their work. So I guess I know I'm going back to the work context here. How do you balance the desire for each person to be completely known and heard and safe as the person they are at work? And also recognizing that this is not some like we're going to pretend to be a family when we're not dynamic, and in the end, someone's still needs to produce and they still need to perform?
Matt Stauffer
As a manager, what do you think your main kind of approach is to both give them psychological safety and also to be able to be candid about when there is an actual problem? Like how do you have the balance between those?
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah. And so the main thing I try to emphasize is that, again, we're all working it out, so I'm expecting for there to be issues, but then also leaning into giving them constructive criticism as soon as possible. I know some managers try to say, "It's okay. It's okay. It's okay," like no issue. But when I do give them constructive criticism, which I try to do often, I still point out the positives in them. It's not like, "Oh, you suck so bad, and I hated how you implemented this last ticket." It's like, "No, I know that you're working really hard on this ticket and I know it's taking longer than usual." And the first thing I try to do is like, is there anything that I'm not privy to that you feel like is keeping you from to be-
Matt Stauffer
That's good.
Taylor Poindexter
... keeping able to produce? If they say no, it's kind of just like, okay, well, let's try to identify some ways that we can help you. Do you need to pay a program and yada, yada, yada? And instead of it being like a blame thing or like, "You're taking forever on this ticket," it's like, how can we...
Matt Stauffer
What can we do? Yes.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah.
Matt Stauffer
Love that.
Taylor Poindexter
To make this work.
Matt Stauffer
That's so good.
Taylor Poindexter
And so even when I'm delivering them constructive criticism, they don't feel like this is all on me. This is like this is a us thing.
Matt Stauffer
And I love the fact that you also said the first thing you ask, is there's something I don't know? Because again, as a manager it can be tempting to say, "I know everything. They should have done this. They didn't do it. They're in trouble." And now this is a power dynamic here. And your first phrase is, "Is there something that I don't know? Is there an ignorance on my part that is allowing me to misunderstand the situation?" And you're giving them agency? And if they say no, I found that people are much more receptive to that feedback, because if they're recognizing that they made a mistake, but the first thing they did was have agency to clear up the communication, they're recognizing that you're not coming in like some brow beating asshole being like, "You screwed up." You're like, "Oh, tell me what's going on." That's really cool.
Matt Stauffer
So one thing I also want to highlight about what you just said was communicating early and often. The fear of conflict, I think, or maybe some mistaken ideas around management or something leaves people constantly in fear that they're going to... like the shoe's going to drop when there's been something that's been going on all along. And I think that's where the fear of like, can I talk to you about something comes from. Because we have this expectation that must be set in something of people being like, "Hey, I've been upset with you for screwing this up for a really long time, and now I'm finally going to tell you."
Matt Stauffer
The amount of safety that comes from being able to tell my employees, if there was a problem you'd already know about it, and that's kind of what you just said. If you're communicating early often, I feel like you could just be like, "I don't have to be anxious if Taylor's upset with me about this, because I know Taylor would've already brought it up to me." I feel like that can go a really long way to giving people some just peace.
Taylor Poindexter
Absolutely. Or even try to do like random one-on-ones with my team, like when nothing's wrong or like, just kind of like, "Hey, can we hop on a call really quick?" And I have something to talk to them about, but they're like, "Sometimes she just wants to hop on to talk about positive things." So it's not like anytime Taylor wants a random one-on-one-
Matt Stauffer
It's not always this...
Taylor Poindexter
It's not always bad.
Matt Stauffer
Right. I like that. So I know we're running shorter on time. So before we get to our last question, is there anything about this topic that you wanted to talk about today that we didn't get a chance to get to?
Taylor Poindexter
Ooh. I think we hit on most of it. I can't think of anything else.
Matt Stauffer
Okay. So you know the last question is what insight or support did you receive or need when you were younger that you hope more people will give to others?
Taylor Poindexter
I kind of touched on it in the interview, but the first thing is like engineers I admired or people I admired admitting that they don't know things, so that that kind of normalized the fact that there's so many things that I don't know.
Taylor Poindexter
Two, there are jobs out there that will make you feel in empowered and cared for. So if you're in that place, I'm not saying it's always easy. I know you have to strategize and interviewing sucks, but there are places there where you'll feel psychologically safe and empowered, especially as minorities. I wish I had known that sooner. Too often I've been told that all jobs suck, it's just kind of what it is. Suck it up until you're 60. But now that I've had two jobs where I feel so empowered, I'm like, "Okay, I wish I had done this from the get go."
Taylor Poindexter
And the last one is that soft skills are just as important as technical skills. Sometimes more important, because they're harder to teach, especially if somebody isn't interested in learning them.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah. Those are really good. We talk about that a lot in hiring. Like I can teach you how to code. I can't teach you how to have integrity. I can't teach you how to have empathy. I can't teach you those things. I mean, I could try, but it's not the same.
Taylor Poindexter
Yeah, it's not the same.
Matt Stauffer
So that's really good. There was one other thing I wanted to share. I don't know if this is going to be relevant at all, but one of the things that I remembered you gaining a lot of prominence for a while back on Twitter was when you started talking about, "Hey, I'm leaving my job. I'm going to take X months off of... and just kind of live off of my savings and I'm going to make this much money at my next job." And I think that you had what felt like audacity to a lot of people to make a dream for what an ideal role would look like.
Matt Stauffer
And the pay was the one that was the most kind of probably dramatic to people only because you knew... One thing y'all may not know about Taylor, she also is a big advocate for salary transparency and has done a whole bunch of big Twitter threads and Google spreadsheets, stuff like that. So she knows what she's worth in a way that a lot of us don't. And so when she's like, "Here's what I'm going to make," you get a lot of people who are like, "How dare you expect that." Which exposed a lot of their issues. We won't talk about that.
Matt Stauffer
But I'm curious is you talk about transparency and... Well, you talk about psychological safety. You went out there and did something that I think would make me feel very unsafe. I talk about depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation and ADHD and all that kind of stuff on my podcasts and stuff like that. It makes me feel very unsafe and I do it because I think it's helpful for people. It seems to me like the experiences you had there, talking about your dreams, talking about salaries, talking about these things are things that could very inherently open you up to a lot of abuse. How did you do that and still stay healthy and safe? Is it a friend community? Is it intentional decisions you made? What does it look like for you to be so vulnerable on the internet with a whole bunch of tech pros coming after you and not lose your mind basically?
Taylor Poindexter
Honestly, it's y'all. I put it out there and I know that there're going to be some jerks, but then in large, large, large numbers, there's going to be a crap ton of people that are supporting me and cheering me on and helping me along the way. And so, also in addition to that, hopefully I'm able to be a good example for somebody else. Some other people have let me know like, "Holy, I saw that tweet and realized that I'm way underpaid." And dozens of people have reached out to me and like, "Hey, I got a new job. Thanks for putting yourself out there." And so like-
Matt Stauffer
I love it.
Taylor Poindexter
... at the end of the day, even if it's just a couple of dozen people that up getting better jobs, it's worth it. Because I know I got my squad, my Twitter squad, my friends and everything like that to support me. And y'all are what it's all about.
Matt Stauffer
I like it. Yeah. You do have a crew of people. If someone says some stuff, you've got a crew of people who are going to go after them. Yes.
Matt Stauffer
Yeah, I had one moment, a couple summers ago where it was a very not positive and kind of traumatic experience of somebody threatening me. And I was like normally I feel like I'm ready to go to bat, but this guy knows where I live, and he literally sent a video physically threatening me. I don't feel like I have the ability to respond to this right now, and I didn't need to. Because like you're talking about, I had a crew of people and they handled it, and there was a response video and there was people... And I just sat off Twitter all day long and I felt very protected and cared for in that moment. So I empathize very much with what you're talking about. When you got that crew, you don't have to be alone in those experiences. So anyway, thanks for sharing that.
Taylor Poindexter
In a weird way, it's like more psychological safety. I know it's not safe to have the jerks come after us, but then I feel safe again.
Matt Stauffer
But then when you see how people respond. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, you feel more safe once you realize that safety net you had around you that you didn't see until it was needed. That's cool.
Taylor Poindexter
My invisible cloak.
Matt Stauffer
I love it. Oh, nerd. Okay. So if people think you're amazing, how can they follow you? How can they support you? How can they learn more about what you're doing?
Taylor Poindexter
Oh yeah. So on Twitter, it's engineering_bae. And then on Instagram, if you're into whiskey, I'm womanwithwhiskey on Instagram.
Matt Stauffer
I love it. And we'll put those in the show notes. And if they're like, "Oh my God, I'm a multi-billionaire and I love everything she's doing and I want to donate to some cause that she cares about," where should they go donate their money?
Taylor Poindexter
Ooh, blackcodecollective.com.
Matt Stauffer
There we go. Might have been intentionally leading in that direction. I love it.
Taylor Poindexter
Oh man.
Matt Stauffer
Awesome. Well, Taylor, this was so much freaking fun. I really appreciate you taking time, being flexible, and sharing all that you learned with us.
Taylor Poindexter
Likewise. I appreciate you so much, Matt.
Matt Stauffer
Awesome. And to the rest of you, until next time. Be good to each other.
Taylor Poindexter
Bye-bye.