In this episode, Shawn Jones, developer at Tighten and Launchcode alumnus, talks with us about being makers and builders, specifically, in the literal sense. He shares with us the freedom and empowerment that physically building something as a hobby can bring, including the learning process of doing something new, and goes over some of his own personal projects which listeners can currently follow. In today's modern world, we have more access to tutorials, classes, and all manner of information gathering than ever before. Shawn encourages us to take advantage of the tools available to us and make something purely for the sake of it. We also discuss the idea of legacies and how we can each leave our own by making a positive impact in the lives of others.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. Hey, and welcome to Things Worth Learning. I'm your host, Matt Stauffer. This is a show where a curious computer programmer. Why did I make an intro that it's so hard to say? A curious computer programmer, that's me, interviews fascinating people about their passions. And my guest today is my friend, Shawn Jones, a programmer at Tighten. Shawn, would you mind telling the audience a little bit about yourself, whether it's your personal or your professional life?
Shawn Jones:
Sure. So me, I am native born from Kentucky, currently live out in St. Louis. I'm married. I have four kids. Programming is actually probably the third or fourth career I've had. I've had passions in being a sound mixing engineer. And I went to school for that, as well as trying to get into the film industry. I went to school for that too, and worked industry for a small bit. And then I moved to St. Louis and landed in actual programming, which I've been doing for the last seven years. So yeah, I'm basically a weird jack of all trades in some situations. And I take lessons from certain parts of my life and put it into others and just generally enjoy maneuvering.
Matt Stauffer:
Love it. Yeah. Shawn's reputation around Tighten is definitely like that. If there's something interesting to be done, he's probably done it before, figured it out, taught himself on YouTube or whatever else it is. Like we've watched this man take apart entire houses down to the studs and then build him back up while still working a full-time job and being a full-time dad. So pretty freaking impressive human being. All right. So Shawn, do you have any life mantra or phrase or idea that you try to live your life by?
Shawn Jones:
I have a few. Okay. So a lot of them are going to be based on my military experience. So the first one is "hele on." You might have seen me type this in a few places, or like ended in an email. "Hele on" was a battle cry for the branch. I was in the army for the particular company that we worked on. So a lot of folks don't know you actually, when you're working for a particular company, you get to choose the cry that you snap to. So usually when they call a dismiss or like come to attention, you usually yell this cry out. And so at our company, we yelled that "hele on." So we were a signal company out in Hawaii and "hele on" is from that particular language out in Hawaii. And it basically just means "to move forward."
And so with that, I think you can actually, you might see some variation of it in Hawaii. I think that's what they named their bus service. It's like Hele or something like that. It just means to move, but they basically, we took it and was like, just means to move forward. Basically, don't let anything stop. You just progress. So there's that one. There's another one where I was in the service and it was a very simple task. We were in basic training and the drill sergeant said, build your foxhole to you. And so, you don't know what a foxhole is. They're really prevalent back in World War I, World War II, where's during trench warfare and you had to build this basically three foot wide by eight foot long, maybe five, six foot deep, just hole in the ground.
Very similar to a grave, which is sort of morbid, but it was just one of those things where you would build it. And then this was a place where you would be in the ground and you would stand on a corner, you'd have your ammunition and stuff in the center of the hole. And there'd be two people to a hole. But the crazy thing that he said about that was he was like, "Yo, don't build it... They're not all standard. They're not all going to be six feet, feet this." Like I'm a five foot six person. So, "Hey, if you're five foot six, then build it to be five foot six. If you're this, build it to be that. If you need sandbags to rest your arm on while you're holding your weapon, use your sandbags. If you need this, just add it. But basically build it to you so you can fight efficiently."
And so I've always remembered that in senses of when I'm transferring from different industries or when I'm working on a particular project and it's like, hey, I don't understand how to tackle this task. I'll probably take five seconds and just think about why does this not work for me as it's working for this other person? Why can I not grasp it in the way that I need to? And then I was like, I take a step back and like, all right, cool, this doesn't work for me. Let me build it around me. Let me make it work the way I need to work for me.
So that's basically helped me in a variety of different situations where I'm transferring from career to career or I'm learning a new skill and I need to actually sort of make it fit around like what I can do at the time. Like maybe, I don't have the money to do the skill, to buy the tools for the skill, or I don't have the space or something like that. It's like, all right, cool, how can I make it work around me? What can I do? Just basically don't keep yourself in a box thinking you got to do the same thing from point A to point B.
Matt Stauffer:
Certain way, right?
Shawn Jones:
Yeah, exactly. And then last one that I'm learning recently, which is kind of cool, is genius learned to do what is needed joyfully. So crazy thing here. I ran into this guru online on social media and it kind of links back to the thing that I've been chasing my entire life. So when I was young, I was very infatuated with a legacy and leaving things to be remembered by. And I think that's what made a lot of my decisions for my career.
So the reason why I wanted to be a mixing engineer is because for me, music lasts forever. Like we hear a song and it's always going to be there. And I wanted to be a part of that magic. Same thing with movies. I want to just like, maybe have my name on the screen, a part of a project that's going to last forever, that's going to resonate with folks. So it was a bit of a struggle when I switched from that to maybe programming. I got the service bit, but it wasn't one of those things where it's like, hey, you're not really going to be remembered for creating these things. It's in sort of like, there's no win there, but what does the take from that?
And I realized that I didn't have to get it from my job. I can actually get it from other external sources in my life. So that's basically meaning have a profound impact on others in the sense of just the essence of doing a good thing for somebody else. So one of the things could be, like recently when I was building a deck and I'm building a deck, I'm building it for not my family, for someone else's family and then I'm thinking of like, oh, what's the profound effect for this? Oh, well, the win here is my Sabrina, which is my niece. She gets to grow up with a deck. And she gets to have that experience of having barbecues on this deck in the summer and doing, taking certain pictures for Halloween and just gatherings and things like that.
And so not even for her, but for the family. And so it's having that profound effect where it's in essence where it'll stay and eventually, maybe she's like 20, 30 years down the road. She's like, you know what? I always have that deck. I want to have another one in my own house, so and so forth. So it's that sort of impact, right?
Matt Stauffer:
Yes, I love that.
Shawn Jones:
And so there's the genius in that, it's like, you're doing something that's needed, that's impactful, and-
Matt Stauffer:
That's really cool.
Shawn Jones:
... and the cool thing is it's not for you, it's for somebody else. So it gets to kind of grow. So that's sort of the cool legacy thing that I'm finding now. It's doing little small things like that, or just doing that extra nudge in the hopes that, hey, I don't need it to benefit me. I just needed to, hopefully it's a good thing that you like, I loved it when this person did this thing for me and I hope to do that for the next person, sort of take that win. But yeah, mostly those three.
Matt Stauffer:
I love that. And that last one is I think is really special for me because when I was building my deck, for those who don't know, I built a deck very publicly on my Instagram stories and very slowly, because I was learning as I went, although Shawn was one of the people who helped me learn at the beginning. Thank you, Shawn. And people would message me and say, this reminds me of when my dad or my brothers or my uncle or my mom or whoever built a deck growing up. And then it was so impactful.
And so the idea for me of Tio Shawn's deck being like, she's going to remember that and she's going to be on that deck. And that whole family's going to be like, oh, this is Tio Shawn's deck or whatever. That gave me goosebumps, man. I love that idea. And I don't know if my kids feel that way about the deck that I built. It's a little bit different when I'm building it for my family, but the idea of doing those things, and I mean, I've also met people who you've mentored. Shawn was an instructor at a code academy called LaunchCode for ages. And I've met people who have been mentored by Shawn. I've met quite a few of them and the way they talk about this, man. Sir, you have legacies.
Shawn Jones:
Thank you.
Matt Stauffer:
And you're out here putting people in positions. I mean, one of them works at Tighten right now and she talks about you almost every single time we have a one-on-one about something that you've done either recently or in the past. So yeah, you're building legacies, my friend. So I love that.
Shawn Jones:
Awesome.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. So after I got my emotional moment today, you know we're actually talking about something specific and usually I know ahead of time what we're talking about. Today, I don't even know. You mentioned your garage, so I have a bit of a sense, but what are we actually talking about today? What's our one topic?
Shawn Jones:
Well, our talks is mostly going to be about, I want to encourage people to be makers for the sense of freedom and be builders. And that sort of ties into what I mentioned a little bit on that last ideology that I follow. And I think everybody should be a builder or maker, like a physical builder or maker in some fields. So it doesn't even have to be carpentry. I think it can be knitting, it can be bakery. It could be any sort of thing. But I think we all need to have that one thing that's not tied to a job. That's just like a hobby that you love, that you can then share with other people and then that it can affect them in a positive way. So that's the talk today, it's to encourage people to be builders.
Matt Stauffer:
I love this. Wow! I mean, I know that you're a builder. So the experiences I've had with you as a builder, and I think we could start there, but I do want to go to your broader ideology soon, but let's set some groundwork. So we've talked about the fact that you ripped your house down to the studs and literally rebuilt almost the whole house from scratch. We talked about the fact that you built a deck from scratch, what other kind of stuff, and I know this, but for the audience, what other sorts of things have you been building recently? Because I've seen some really cool ones that I love, but I may not even know everything. So what has your physical output been over the last couple years?
Shawn Jones:
It's been very slow. So my physical output, unfortunately, for the last year I've been building this toy chest. And so the thing is with me is like, I'm still in my learning phase, even though you asked me a question, I can spit it out. I'm still like, I go really slow with learning a new particular skill. And so I'm on YouTube, watching stuff and getting inspired by things. And so now I'm building this toy chest and the original idea came up with my friend. We have served in the military together. So I've known him since 2003. And he's a guy who I go and visit him. He lives in Dallas, maybe once or twice a summer. And he had sent me a photo, and he knows that I'm doing woodworking. I share all of my experience with him.
And so he sent me a photo and he's like, "Hey, what do you think of this box?" And it was a very simple box and it had geometric shapes in the front of it. And so I was like, "Okay. Yeah, sure. It looks cool." And then I'm thinking like, I get this is maybe he didn't really ask me, I think what is more so I was like, "Hey, I can build that for you if you want to," and he's go, "Yeah, sure. No problem." And I was like, "Cool." So then I needed the challenge, hey, how do I make shapes? I've actually never made a box before. I've been doing this for several years. I've never made a complete-
Matt Stauffer:
Just a box. Yeah.
Shawn Jones:
Just a box. And that's the most basic thing you could do as a furniture maker woodworker. So yeah, I never made a box before. This seems this is a new thing. I want do some crazy angles and shapes on it, that makes sense. I want to try some different sort of joinery on this. So it's like, yeah, this is the perfect project for me to take on right now. And so I go to use a SketchUp. So I go to SketchUp and just kind of draft a box and I show it to him and he's like, "Whoa!" I was like, "What do you think it's like?" And at first he told me, "I was thinking the photo had, it was like a box next to a fireplace." So I initially had the intentions of it being like maybe something's going to store wood or something like that. He's like, "Oh, well, we're thinking of sort of like a box, this to hold toys for my granddaughter." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, perfect." I'm all in now. This is game. So this is where exactly where I want to be. So-
Matt Stauffer:
Love it.
Shawn Jones:
... And it's perfect. And so midway designing it, her name is, I believe Nova, so midway designing it, I was like, oh, yeah, it reminds me of the North Star. So why not just make it with mountains and then have a star in the middle. And it's sort of fit her as an individual, right? Just like with her name or whatever. And so then I showed them the photo and they're like, "Are you serious?" I was like, "Yeah." Like, "Let's do this!"
Matt Stauffer:
That was my look when I saw what you're building, man. It's amazing.
Shawn Jones:
Yeah. So I was like, let's go for it. And that was the thing, I was like, yeah, sure. So that was last year. So I think I drew it out. We had that conversation. That was last year. I've seen them twice since then. And I'm telling, yeah, it's going to be done soon. I just ran into these problems. But that's the thing I love with that trade offs. It's like, hey, I'll build it for you, but let's just not keep it on a timeline. I'll-
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. It's going to take a minute.
Shawn Jones:
It's going to take a minute. And I'm also like because I'm building it in this a project of mine, I'm not asking him to pay me for materials or anything like that. I just want to build it. And then once it's built, I'm about, I don't know, three quarter of the way there, then I'm going to take it down to him and drop it off and then let him deliver it to his granddaughter. So...
Matt Stauffer:
Awesome. I love that.
Shawn Jones:
And the cool things I'm learning out about this is he told me, it's like, "Oh, yeah, I remember when my..." I think he said my uncle built a toy chest for me and my brother. And it still lived in a room for a certain time. So he was all about this idea. And I was like, yeah, this is... I love those types of gifts that even though they're not immediately usable to a particular person, they just have a meaning behind them and they just kind of resonate things for you.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, just stay on, right?
Shawn Jones:
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, yeah. That's cool. I mean, obviously you know that I'm a woodworking nerd, so I'd love to go there, but today we're not talking about woodworking, so we're not going to do that. But there, you already referenced a whole bunch of things in this piece of the conversation that I think that are super relevant because we've talked about you are getting a lot of joy from being able to make this, you're learning something, having fun learning it. It's providing a lasting value to someone, but it's also something really special, right? Like the fact that you're making it a special, in part, because you're doing all the special work. It's Nova, it's connected to her in a way that no other thing would be able to be. But it's also special because she may not know you, but he does. And he's going to see that thing every single time.
And he's going to say, oh, my God, this person who I know and love created this for me. And my kids have a couple things that someone they've never met made for them, like a quilt that one of my friends made. And they... Or they met her once or something like that, but they still know it was made for them. And that really means a lot to people. And I imagine that there's a couple different facets of what you like about each person being a maker. And I may have touched on a couple of them, but as you think about it, like when you encourage someone and someone says, you're telling me I got to take another thing and do another thing on my life, I'm already so busy, can you give me the pitch? What's the benefits that come? Why should everyone be a maker, a physical maker?
Shawn Jones:
I think so just start in and work out. So the immediate benefit is you get to learn yourself. And I think that's my main benefit. That's why I don't even do it for money. It's like when I'm working on a project, I'm creating something. Like that box, I don't even know how to do, I didn't even have half the tools. That's why it's taking so long. Like I've never done any of that stuff before. And it's like, all right, cool, I'm going to put myself in this situation that I have to move through it and figure it out and not only figure out how to complete it, but figure out how I would tackle it, how I envision it and how I just want to just maneuver it, just maneuver around it. And so I think we need that as individuals, because a lot of us don't get that in our day to day.
Some of us are just like, hey, we're happy to work, go home, and be cool. And then we hit an unforeseen circumstance and now we have to figure out how to work through the circumstance. And a lot of that time, most folks are frantic. They're like, I don't know how to handle this situation, and what do I do? So and so forth. And they get anxiety and some folks, they bail out, they have that flight sense. And they're like, all right, cool, I can't deal with this right now. And so I think just by doing that, being a maker, you're going to put yourself in places where you have to learn and work through it, of course. And then on top of that, you're just learning how to learn. And you're learning how you learn specifically.
And that's one of the things when I was teaching folks, I was like, "Hey, look, I'm not like what..." I'm in front of folks at LaunchCode, I'm teaching them, and I'm like, "Hey, I'm not teaching you Java, so you learn Java. I'm teaching you how to learn so you can learn the next thing." And so that's what this point is. It's about grappling the idea of maybe you don't learn by an example. Maybe you need to learn with hands on. Maybe you need to have somebody teach you step by step. So that way, when you go and learn the next thing, you can look for that, you can ask for that, as opposed to say, I don't know. And then that's where a lot of young folks, especially my kids, I'm like, "Hey, you want to... How do you do this?"They're like, "Well, I don't know." They don't even know how to start the problem or figure it out. And I'm like, "No, you've got all the tools in the world." I'm like that that dad like, "You got YouTube and stuff. I didn't even have this when I was your age."
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. No kidding.
Shawn Jones:
And so, but they don't even know how to use the tools. And so that's the one of those things where I'm like, wow, this is crazy that we put them in a great position to succeed and to win, and they don't even know how to use the tools to win because they don't know themselves and they don't know how they learn yet. So there's that part. And then the other part is just, you're finding your genius and you're letting it flower when you're giving that gift to somebody else that they need. And it's not for you, it's not for you, it's for them. And that gives that little intrinsic when also like a sense of pride too, because every time I go over to that deck, now that deck has been out in the sun for two years, it's got furniture everywhere. There's toys outside. It's theirs, but every time I look out there, I'm like, yo, I did that. Yeah. I spend... This is amazing. Every time I step on it, I'm making sure it's still level-
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah! I was just about to say-.
Shawn Jones:
... I'm like, "Yep, still level."
Matt Stauffer:
Still level.
Shawn Jones:
You know what I'm saying? It's so like, okay, cool, it doesn't need any work. And the fact that it's standing the test of time as well. Nothing looks like you used the right bolts. It's not rusting. It's-
Matt Stauffer:
Nothing's rusting. Yeah, exactly.
Shawn Jones:
... The wood's not... What they say? Like it's not molding over because you use the right type of wood. It's still, it has a solid connection. Everything's still solid. It's been two, three years. And then who knows? You go back, maybe they're not living in the house no more. Another family is there. The deck is still there.
Matt Stauffer:
You drive by and you still see that there.
Shawn Jones:
You drive by, it's... You know what I'm saying? So it's a sense of winning on an external like, "Yo, I did that and I'm proud of that." And I think that's where a lot of just regular workers, like your plumbers, your electricians, things like that, I think they get that win too. And I think a lot of folks need that, because a lot of times we work on our job and you do something for a company, you go home, it's not yours, right?
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah, yeah.
Shawn Jones:
And so to have something physically tangible in the world that exists, that's yours is awesome. And-
Matt Stauffer:
I love that.
Shawn Jones:
... and then yeah, just the essence of it, right? Just the essence of it. You've got the two wins for yourself, but then the essence of it, inspiring others and to accept something of value for themselves that they joy and love. Like the main reason why... This is a crazy thing. So going back to the house when I was rebuilding the house, it's my wife's house. And I met my wife online and I was living in Los Angeles. She's living in St. Louis, and so I flew to St. Louis. And I had been dating several people, right? Like, all right. And so I met this woman. I was like, "Oh, yeah, she's it." And the reason why I got to meet her was because I came into this house in 2011 and it actually reminded me of my home in Kentucky.
It was like sort of the same level of living. Like, hey, it's simple. This is what we got, nothing crazy. And it didn't have to be anything special, but it was warm and inviting. But it just didn't fit. It just remind me of everything I had in the '80s and '90s when I was growing up. So fast forward to 2018, I'm sitting in the same house and I don't like it. I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, "Oh, this doesn't fit me now, or it doesn't resonate with me. it doesn't give me joy. Or I feel like I'm in the past when I should be in the future. And I feel like I should have new things."
And I think I just gutted the house. I had no money set up for this. I think I had maybe three or five grand to do the floor and midway through the project I was like, "Yo, we're taking down everything. I don't like anything." Because the whole project was like, let's just fix the subfloor so we can get a level so we can lay down flooring. And I was like, you know what? I don't like these walls. I don't like this bathroom. I don't like this kitchen. Let's just gut it and we'll just figure it out later. And so I remember gutting it and then building on it and then being able to add the floors that I like and being able to add the colors that I like. And in my mind, of course, every weekend I was tired and I was drain and so on and so forth.
But I kept thinking, you know what, this is going to make a place for my kids to where they will accept nothing less than what they're growing up in now, because I was still attached to that when I was... I'm what, 38 now. And I was still attached to that when I showed that house 11 years ago. And so I'm hoping that now I'm like, hey, look, this is a modern style living that I want you guys to go in and accept nothing less than here. Because you usually only ask for what you know, instead of what you probably should want for yourself, that's higher value. So it's just being a builder, having that impact on others in that way. Like now my kids are growing up in something. Well, we're not even there anymore. We've moved. But now their kids are growing up in something where now they won't accept anything less in what that is. Whether they move and rent something or whether they move and decide to get their own house. So like they have a new level standard of living that they want for themselves. So that's impactful too.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. And you helped that family who's now in that house have an experience there that they would not have had you not done the work on the house before them being there. So even like you keep saying, like your network of people that you're having this influence on is going further and further. You had said a couple things here that I all have been percolating my brain. One of the things you said earlier was about, you want to teach people how to learn. And it's really interesting to me because, so when I started dating my girlfriend, one of the things that she said was, "I really love that you're really handy. You had built a deck, you just pointed to different projects I've done around the house." And her idea was like, "Well, maybe it's because you're one of the last generations, because a lot of guys these days don't know these things."
I was like, "Every single thing I did, I learned on YouTube," you know what I mean? I didn't grow doing that stuff. And it granted like my dad rebuilt a playhouse and I got to help with that a little bit. And then I was in Cub Scouts and we did little things in Cub Scouts. So it piqued my interest, but it didn't give me the skills I'm taking today. I'm like, no, no, what I'm doing right now, I learned on YouTube a month ago. So it's granted YouTube is wonderful, but there's a lot of people who know YouTube exists who are in their 20s and even 30s today who don't have that ability to go and just say, I have everything in the world that I need to learn this skill to go do this thing.
And so that's really interesting because that was what was on my brain earlier. And then when you said what you just said, I realized you're also giving that skill to your kids when you're doing intentionally, yes, but even when you're not doing it intentionally, they watched you rebuild that entire house and I'm pretty sure that they knew you didn't know that beforehand, right? So you're giving, you're not just telling the words to your kids that this is something that can be done and you have the ability to do this, you're also giving them the example, which kids learn by way more than our words, right? You're giving them example that if dad did this, because again with the deck, the number of people I said, who messaged me saying, "Wow! I could never do anything that."
But in the message of them saying that they also realized that they had watched family members do stuff like that. And I think they're starting to realize that those family members did not have access to something they don't know. Maybe they had access to a parent or whatever who trained them, but they didn't have access to YouTube. So I just love that you're setting this example for people that you have everything you need. And we just live in this place of like, I can't do it because I never learned, I can't do it because I don't have the tools yet. And you're like, nah, it's going to happen. And that was one of your mantras, right? Like the hele on, we're going to-
Shawn Jones:
Yeah. Just moving forward. Yeah.
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Moving forward. I love how these all connect together. So you've mentioned the fact that you're learning a lot about yourself. You mentioned the fact that building these things is also providing a legacy. You talked a little bit about how you're this connection with your kids. But as you think about being a physical maker, I know something that's really common is people who work in front of a computer all day. People often joke that programmers very often become carpenters and stuff like that. Could you talk a little bit about like, do you see value in the physicality of working with your hands as an information worker? Because you mentioned that you're less concerned about this for plumbers and other people who do physicality as part of their job. Do you feel like doing something physical helps you as an information worker, just in terms of your stress or your body? Is that something that's ever come up for you or is it not something you thought about so much?
Shawn Jones:
Yeah. I think it's a high that you get when you're building with something physical and then you're able... That element of your body easily transfers over the work, because now I think of tackling tasks as like a fire. So like you're building a fire. And so in the essence of when you're building a fire, you start with candle. You're not throwing full on logs. So you're starting with candle, you're working your way up the branches. You might throw some leaves here and there, but ultimately you're working the logs where you can tackle something heavy. And so I think something as simple as let's say you cut your day and you did something in the wood shop where you're working physically with your hands, you're moving, you're listening. You're finding a synergetic feeling yourself where all right, cool, everything's just working and then you come out of it and you're I accomplished something today.
And then, boom, let's say now you got to go and move on and go into work. It's not a problem. Like all right, cool, I've already knocked out some great things today. Now I'm going to sit down and tackle these couple of tasks. And so I think there's that, I think the physicality of it though, just looking at all the areas as far as like, hey, the measurements of something, calculations, things of that nature, getting your brain working in that way and then realizing, okay, cool, I can transfer this over to work and be just as methodical and look at it, all these different things. Am I checking all my boxes?
Sometimes people it's like, it's a process. Maybe when you're going down there, you realize, oh, I make lists for this and I've got this drawn out and so and so forth. And maybe you might actually transfer that over to the information tech world. So you're like, okay, you know what, I realize I do this down here. I could probably be doing this every day in the job. So it's one of those things, like it just helps you build your way of working in a different fashion and you can just transferred.
Matt Stauffer:
Yeah. That reminds me of every day when I work out in the morning, which is infrequent these days, I have a great rest of my day because I've got all those dopamine and whatever else it ends up being. And I hadn't thought about that. But the days when I go over my lunch break and work on something in the workshop, I'm like, the rest of the day is a lot better because my brain has reset, because you often you get that afternoon point where you're burning out a little bit. When I go do something there, I'm revitalized, and my brain is, I think it's like a reset when you'd put your brain in a different space to think in a different way. Like even if it weren't specifically affecting the type of work you're doing, just giving your brain that space to do something different and also to have an accomplishment.
Like I think one of the biggest things... I wish the exact phrase I can remember, but my dad would always say like... Basically one of his biggest things for us in life is you should always look back at the work you did with pride. And it's not his phrase. I wish I could remember it, but he's basically like he was trying to teach us, don't just do the thing half ass, do the thing to a degree where you look at it and you go, I'm really proud of what I did versus I got it done. And it reminds me of this a little bit because it's often very difficult to feel this full level of pride in something that is purely virtual that is owned by somebody else that is... And it might be for a programmer, but it might be for anybody else who works on the computer.
It's in part because it belongs to being some big nameless, faceless corporation instead of you or because it's on the internet instead of real person, whatever it is. I feel like there's a lot of part of jobs that don't give us that satisfaction of like, I made progress and I can physically see that progress. Like a lot of my systems, I have all my to-do lists and this giant bullet journal here, because I can cross them off and I can see the previous days crossed off items and I was like, progress, because we're searching for the ability to actually see a thing. So that makes a ton of sense for me. I love... I had not thought about it that way. So I really appreciate that. We have a little bit more time, but we're close to wrapping. What else do you want to cover about this topic? Is there anything else we haven't gotten a chance to cover yet?
Shawn Jones:
No, I think, that's mostly it. I know a lot of folks are just thinking like, how can you get started or what should I start, or something like that?
Matt Stauffer:
Yes, let's do that.
Shawn Jones:
But I think in that sense, it's going to jump out at you, just don't ignore it. I know it's probably already jumped out at you as the individual and you just like, no, I can't do that, because I don't have the tools or I don't have the time or it's in a particular place and I can't go and do it. And I just want to encourage people, just say yes to a few of those steps and just get started. That's the hardest part about most of this. It's not even the fact that it's learning it. It's the fact that just starting. But once you start and you get into that gear of all right, cool, now I'm going to take this next step and I'm going to do this. It's going to take on itself, if it's something that you start to truly enjoy. And at the same time, if you're trying something out and it's not happening, then don't be afraid to be like-
Matt Stauffer:
Let it go.
Shawn Jones:
... all right, cool, this is not for me. I think with me, particularly in furniture, and like just woodworking it's I think I gravitate a lot towards the furniture because it's very challenging and I like the carpenter piece, but I know there's a few areas of it where I'm like, nah, this is too much. Or for example, the box, I love building it for somebody. So if the win is still be a profound effect on someone else's life, I'll do it again. But I think if it's for me, outside of having a physical need, I'll probably never go down this path unless I've... I don't want to spend this much time on it. So maybe for me, furniture in certain areas is going to work and where it's not. I personally love carpentry, like housing. Like if I can get another house project and just be like, let me just knock down this room and rebuild it really quick. I love that stuff, because it's-
Matt Stauffer:
You do that in a heart bit.
Shawn Jones:
... because I don't have to go too deep into all right, what's the measurement? What's the angles? It's like, yo, I just got to do busy work.
Matt Stauffer:
You just going to rough it in.
Shawn Jones:
Yeah. Just let me just rough it in. Let me do this, and I'm going to enjoy the experience of watching it come to life, just the same. So it's like, you don't always have to get too deep into the thing to be the ultimate expert. I think that's a lot of thing what people chase too. They chase trying to be an expert. Don't have to chase that. Just do it to enjoy it, get to a certain point that you like it and then just keep rolling and get your feet off of that. And then also don't think of it as something that you have to change into a job. I know a lot of people do that. They're like, ooh, I can do this. And a lot of folks instantly say, oh, now you can make-
Matt Stauffer:
Side hustle. Yeah.
Shawn Jones:
... make side hustles and make end tables or make this. And I'm like, for what?
Matt Stauffer:
Or don't. Yeah.
Shawn Jones:
Yeah. Because now you're going to add added stress that you don't need. So if you can keep it as a hobby for as long as you can then keep it as a hobby for as long as you can. And then treat it as your love and like as a person you physically love. If you love somebody, you don't want to make it cheap by introducing money into the deal. You Just keep it as something that you love. And it's like a thing between you and it and just ride.
Matt Stauffer:
You don't ever want that love relationship to be an obligation, right?
Shawn Jones:
No, never.
Matt Stauffer:
You don't want to be like, "oh, well I HAVE to go love my spouse." Like, nah, you don't want to have to... I think that's one-
Shawn Jones:
Just want to do it.
Matt Stauffer:
... It's one of the cool things about your decision, not to set a timeline on the toy boxes so that you didn't ever feel obligated. You're like, I'm going to do this when this is what I'm motivated to do. I have energy for it. I'm ready. So that makes sense. Well, I got one more question for you, which is what insight or support did you receive or need when you were younger that you hope more people will give to others?
Shawn Jones:
So the things that stuck out to me, and this is probably going to go back to learning a bit, the things that stuck out to me as a kid is first of all, I feel like I didn't know anything. I was just like floating around in space and just doesn't make, half of my decisions didn't make any sense. But I think the things that stuck out to me were the moments where someone went out of their way to kind of check me in a good way when I was doing something wrong. And it's not like when you're doing something bad, but when you're straying away from the usual, right? So it could be something like, if a friend was going to do it, it could be something as simple as you go into school and your sneakers are dirty and they'd be like, yo fam, why are you coming to school with your dirty sneakers? Hey, yo, this is what you got to do. You got to clean the sole-
Matt Stauffer:
Right. Clean this thing. Yeah, exactly.
Shawn Jones:
... use a bleach, use a toothbrush. And I love that because in that essence, it's like, yo, I don't want to see you walking around here, just looking halfway, I want you to become correct. So I love that essence. Another thing is just having folks understand that you don't learn how you learn and then they try to change the way how to teach you. So I remember having a math teacher to this day, he was a wonderful dude, and he would always explain it in a way that was step by step and make you do this until you got it, three or four times. He wasn't trying to be the person that says, hey, if I give you this thing, just try to figure out the rest. He was like, no, I know this person needs a step by step instruction. So then he would give you a step by step instruction.
Matt Stauffer:
So, we're just gonna do it that way, yeah.
Shawn Jones:
And then there's other people, they would like, okay, I understand this person doesn't understand it like this. So let me put it in a place where they understand it. So I think for today's folks, I would say, "Hey, make sure like if you see something wrong, just politely help correct it. And that'll last with them forever. And then if you are trying... If someone asks a general question that you think they should know, just provide grace and space for that and just say, oh, okay, cool, they don't know, let me fill them in on it." And then-
Matt Stauffer:
Love that.
Shawn Jones:
... if they keep following up and asking those questions, then just let it flow, because then ultimately you're doing two things. They're getting the knowledge that they need, but then they're also getting the way how it's taught and then they'll go and teach somebody else in the same sense because that's how they were treated.
Matt Stauffer:
Love that.
Shawn Jones:
So that's basically the two that foundation for how I teach people today is the rate, the same reason.
Matt Stauffer:
Love it. That's so good. I don't have much to say to that, but I just want to acknowledge that what you just said about the how to teach them has just got my brain rolling about how I teach my kids. So thank you.
Shawn Jones:
Yeah. No problem.
Matt Stauffer:
I usually tell everybody, I was like, this podcast ends up being therapy for me almost every single time. All right. So if people think you're amazing, they want to follow you. They want to see the stuff that you're building or anything else, where should people go follow you?
Shawn Jones:
I'm pretty active on Instagram. So I'm @Shawn_Jones on Instagram. I don't know why I use my regular name, but I just do. So yeah, @Shawn_Jones on Instagram, everywhere else, Twitter and GitHub and stuff, I'm basically @darkboywonder pretty much anywhere else. So Instagram's the only place where I'm special.
Matt Stauffer:
All right. We'll put them on the show notes and I think you have a pinned story on Instagram with stuff about the toy box, right? So, if y'all are-
Shawn Jones:
Yes, I got some story about that.
Matt Stauffer:
So if anybody's interested in checking out this specific toy box and you really should because this, we haven't done a nearly good enough job of just describing how complex this shapes on the front of this toy box are, you got to check them out. So we'll have links to all these things, the show notes as always. And Shawn, thank you so much for making time, especially on a summer Friday, Tighten doesn't work on Fridays and Shawn is hanging out here with us. So thank you so much, man. It was a total pleasure having you.
Shawn Jones:
No problem. It's been great. It's been fun.
Matt Stauffer:
All right, and for the rest of y'all, until next time, be good to each other.